Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

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xandrex
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby xandrex » September 3rd, 2020, 11:02 pm

If two separate routes is really necessary for aBRTing the 10 and 18, couldn't you just add a little length to each route so the 18 extends up to Lowry and the 10 goes down to Lake or 38th or whatever? I have to imagine the bulk of ridership is concentrated between these areas, so you get to double up on service, provide one-seat trips for people in the densest areas of South and NE Minneapolis, and you don't have to worry about super long routes?

alexschief
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby alexschief » September 4th, 2020, 7:41 am

Is it really a deal breaker for a Nicollet-Central aBRT to be a couple miles longer than the D Line? My main concern with this route is the Central Avenue segment where it crosses the Canadian Pacific tracks at-grade. Just one train could really screw up the schedule, and there's no plans for grade-separation.
To be clear, a Nicollet/Central aBRT route, even one that went up to Medtronic (looking at the individual stop data, it seems that there's a case to go up to the border with Fridley, which is where ridership truly drops off), would be about the same length, possibly shorter, than the D Line.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby DanPatchToget » September 4th, 2020, 9:09 am

But isn't the proposed routing on Central, then 53rd to University, and a northern terminus at Northtown Mall?

Tcmetro
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Tcmetro » September 4th, 2020, 12:22 pm

The combined Nicollet-Central line from American Blvd to Northtown would be about 20 miles in length.

There's definitely reason to continue the Central line up to Northtown, it's a major destination and anchor on the line.

I think it would be plausible to send the Nicollet line down to 98th and 35W. There's a transit center there which is a better turnaround than the hotel cul-de-sac on American Blvd.

I'm concerned about reliability on the D Line, especially since all buses will run the whole length from Brooklyn Center to Mall of America. Right now on the 5, a lot of Brooklyn Center trips end at 56th and Chicago, and a lot of MOA trips end at 26th Ave N.

alexschief
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby alexschief » September 4th, 2020, 2:19 pm

The combined Nicollet-Central line from American Blvd to Northtown would be about 20 miles in length.

There's definitely reason to continue the Central line up to Northtown, it's a major destination and anchor on the line.

I think it would be plausible to send the Nicollet line down to 98th and 35W. There's a transit center there which is a better turnaround than the hotel cul-de-sac on American Blvd.

I'm concerned about reliability on the D Line, especially since all buses will run the whole length from Brooklyn Center to Mall of America. Right now on the 5, a lot of Brooklyn Center trips end at 56th and Chicago, and a lot of MOA trips end at 26th Ave N.
There's a reason to consider transit service to Northtown on Central and to 98th on Nicollet, but there's no reason to consider aBRT to those destinations. I think just about anyone who believes Nicollet/Central should be combined believes that the route shouldn't go further north than the Fridley border or further south than American, just as the the #10 and #18 do not have full service in those areas today. It's absolutely the case that such a full-length route would be problematic from the point of view of driver scheduling, beyond increasing the risk of delays beyond a certain threshold.

The idea of Nicollet/Central, besides facilitating crosstown trips and an everywhere-to-everywhere transit network, is consolidating aBRT service in the best possible transit markets.

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Tiller
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Tiller » September 5th, 2020, 1:07 pm

I'm suprised that Century (219 Bus) ranked higher than American (542 Bus). American is very stroad-y and suburban, but there is far more *stuff* along the American route than there is along Century. More density, more potential transfers, more destinations. Unless Century College and the demographics of the area are enough to outweigh everything along American Blvd.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » September 5th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Looks like they were, but only barely. Each corridor was scored out of 100, and Century got a 39.7, with American getting 38.1, compared to Nicollet getting a 90.1 and Lowry, the last one to make the cut for further study, getting a 52.6. So really, they effectively tied - American did a tiny bit better for Market Potential and Community Plans and Priorities, but Century edged it out with marginally higher scores for Equity, Existing Midday Service Level, and Existing Ridership.

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Tiller
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Tiller » September 6th, 2020, 10:15 am

Another thought, why did they not include the full 63 bus route here? The section that serves East Saint Paul along 3rd St has been excluded. They've done some stop consolidation that's going in effect right now, though that applies to Grand Ave, too, which they looked at for aBRT.

East of Earl St, E 3rd St is 0.7 miles south of E 7th St. And it ranges from 0.25 to 0.7 miles south of E 7th St from Mounds Blvd to Earl. So spacing isn't really the issue from other aBRT lines. Maybe their concern is that it would steal riders from the Gold Line? It's only 0.25 to 0.3 miles from the Gold Line.

There's also the question of the southern leg of the 63 Bus along McKnight. I thought I read something about them extending that and spinning it off into a bus route that goes between Sunray and the end of the Gold Line. Maybe that won't be implemented until the Gold Line is built? I guess that'd be a couple ways the Gold Line could be interfering with things.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Bakken2016 » September 6th, 2020, 10:33 am

There's also the question of the southern leg of the 63 Bus along McKnight. I thought I read something about them extending that and spinning it off into a bus route that goes between Sunray and the end of the Gold Line. Maybe that won't be implemented until the Gold Line is built? I guess that'd be a couple ways the Gold Line could be interfering with things.
The 323 will be implemented in 2021 now, it was originally planned for this summer. But then COVId happened


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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » October 7th, 2020, 8:41 am

If (hopefully when) they implement the W Broadway/Cedar line, combining the north half of the 14 with the south half of the 22, I'm curious what would happen to those two routes. MT has said that they're moving towards just having the aBRT routes be full replacements for the former routes, rather than run cutdown overlay service like the 84 or the 19. Would they just keep the two half-routes, or combine them into one new route from Brooklyn Center to Richfield?

Also, doesn't look like this link was posted before, but there's an interactive story map for this planning process. It lets you zoom in on the maps and see the specific proposed routing, which is fun. For example, the W Broadway/Cedar and Como/Maryland lines are proposed to just traverse downtown on Washington Ave from the North Loop to Seven Corners, which I continue to maintain is a much better choice than having them swoop down to 7th/8th and 3rd/4th.

Tcmetro
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Tcmetro » October 17th, 2020, 8:47 am

Looks like the next we will hear about the next lines will be Dec 16th at the TAB meeting.

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... pdate.aspx

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby mamundsen » October 17th, 2020, 5:57 pm

As more aBRT lines begin operation, I don’t see why Red, Gold, and Rush(purple?) are colors instead of letters. To me, it seems it will confuse the casual rider.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Bakken2016 » October 17th, 2020, 5:58 pm

As more aBRT lines begin operation, I don’t see why Red, Gold, and Rush(purple?) are colors instead of letters. To me, it seems it will confuse the casual rider.
Anything with a dedicated guideway or highway BRT will have a color to denote the difference.


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mamundsen
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby mamundsen » October 17th, 2020, 6:13 pm

As more aBRT lines begin operation, I don’t see why Red, Gold, and Rush(purple?) are colors instead of letters. To me, it seems it will confuse the casual rider.
Anything with a dedicated guideway or highway BRT will have a color to denote the difference.


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Thanks for the clarification. I thought A-E lines are planned to have some bus only lanes or utilize shoulders. Maybe it will make more sense once the Gold line and the D, B, and E line open. As it stands now, I don’t see a huge difference between A and Red.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Bakken2016 » October 17th, 2020, 6:16 pm

As more aBRT lines begin operation, I don’t see why Red, Gold, and Rush(purple?) are colors instead of letters. To me, it seems it will confuse the casual rider.
Anything with a dedicated guideway or highway BRT will have a color to denote the difference.


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Thanks for the clarification. I thought A-E lines are planned to have some bus only lanes or utilize shoulders. Maybe it will make more sense once the Gold line and the D, B, and E line open. As it stands now, I don’t see a huge difference between A and Red.
I think B and E will have a portion of dedicated, but not fully. So colors are full dedicated ROW/LRT and BRT. And letters are prominently street running. I think Riverview will get a color as well, even though most is dedicated with a portion of street running.


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tmart
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby tmart » October 18th, 2020, 7:06 am

As more aBRT lines begin operation, I don’t see why Red, Gold, and Rush(purple?) are colors instead of letters. To me, it seems it will confuse the casual rider.
I agree. Especially given that the Orange Line will run in carpool lanes and the Red Line runs in shoulders, the only thing they really consistently have in common with the Blue and Green Lines (but not the A/C/D lines) is stop spacing. Now that we have actual successful high-frequency bus lines using letters, the time is right to consolidate.

I think it's mostly a political question, not a service/legibility question. It's politically convenient to have maps with first-class "Metro" service running to Apple Valley and Woodbury and White Bear Lake. It's politically inconvenient to spend 5-10x as much money on the suburban lines as the urban lines but not have some special branding to tout.

Tcmetro
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Tcmetro » October 18th, 2020, 10:31 am

The biggest issue with the lettered lines is the lack of dedicated lanes to ensure reliability. They are more like better local bus routes, with fewer stops and off board payment as well as getting rid of the insane amount of route variations that Metro Transit has.

The Orange line will mostly use the HO/T lanes, which in theory can price away congestion. When I used to ride suburban express buses on 35W (mostly before 2013) they seemed pretty quick at rush hour. The Red Line has a mix of shoulder running and bus lanes in Apple Valley. The Gold and Rush Lines will be dedicated busways.

The problem with colors is that there's only so many. Few cities outside the US use color systems. Bangkok and Delhi are probably the most comprehensive of those and have exhausted all the colors (Bangkok has Light Green, Dark Green, Light Red, Dark Red, Light Blue, Dark Blue, etc - both open and in progress. Delhi has Magenta, Pink, and Violet, as well as a ton of new lines underway). Los Angeles has moved away from colors, giving all the BRT and Rail routes letters last year.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby DanPatchToget » October 18th, 2020, 11:03 am

Perhaps it's best we focus on actually getting these lines built and worry about designating them later. It would be a good problem to run out of basic colors and having to figure out a new naming system, but we're not there yet.

Mdcastle
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Mdcastle » October 18th, 2020, 6:44 pm

I thought the colors were to fool suburbanites into thinking they were riding a train instead of a bus.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby NickP » October 20th, 2020, 9:26 am

Tokyo and São Paulo have a wonderful array of colors on their lines too :-)


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