Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

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twincitizen
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby twincitizen » May 25th, 2021, 7:14 am

A request to the TAB to award the F Line (Central) $25MM in the next round of regional solicitation: https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... -Line.aspx

This was the first step of funding for previous lines, and just like those it'll take state bonding along with federal grants to fulfill the total $81MM project cost. I don't believe the E Line (Hennepin) is fully funded yet either, as it only received enough money for planning/engineering in last year's bonding bill. My prediction is we'll see large bonding requests for construction of the E & F Lines in the 2022 bill, with G & H hopefully funded in 2024.

An interesting note in this presentation to the TAB is that Metro Transit staff won't be selecting any additional aBRT corridors until 2025 or beyond. That probably makes sense, as the D Line just began construction, B and E are progressing from planning into engineering, and the F, G, and H Lines will keep everyone busy for the next 4 years. Even if they're able to pick up the pace from opening a line every 3 years (2016, 2019, 2022) to one per year (B in '23 and E in '24?), the F/G/H could take us through ~2027. They sorta have the Johnson-Lyndale line pencilled in as the next one, though stopped short of giving it a letter or adding it to the map (2nd to last page of presentation). The only route that I suspect could jump the queue would be the 18, either as a separate route or extension of the F Line.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby alexschief » May 25th, 2021, 8:09 am

I would like to see the F Line extended down Nicollet concurrent with the reconnection of the street and also a new aBRT line down University NE/SE to Cleveland Ave in St. Paul and ending at the Ford Site.

Number one, that would break off about five miles from the F Line, which would allow it to go further down Nicollet. As it's currently envisioned I don't think you can simply extend the F Line down Nicollet, because the resulting route will be either be too long, or will end at an arbitrary point to the south. So you need to save some length somehow, and cutting off the extension off of Central to the Northtown Mall makes the most sense.

Number two, having a NE Mpls to W St. Paul route would fill in a major hole in Metro Transit's current operations. With Highland Bridge as an anchor, I think that aBRT on Cleveland becomes far more viable, and connecting that dense development with St. Kate's, UST, UMN, and the St. Anthony area will make a lot of sense, in addition to making some useful new connections with other METRO routes.

I would also like to see some kind of ongoing support from the legislature that would enable Metro Transit to push these routes out on a much faster and more regular schedule. One aBRT route a year isn't fast enough, but I'll take it over this plodding, one every three years approach. Hopefully the DFL can overcome the pot party spoilers in 2022.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » May 25th, 2021, 8:22 am

I wonder if we could see a shorter extension of the F Line, just down to Lake Street or so, rather than insisting that no transit improvements can happen for Nicollet until such time as we muster the political will and funding to build the whole ten miles down to the river in one go. Then, when we do get that will and funding lined up, the Nicollet Line could extend up to Lowry, doubling frequency on the busiest part of the corridor and allowing at least some one-seat rides through downtown.
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby DanPatchToget » May 25th, 2021, 9:07 am

Are they still planning to eventually reroute the C Line from Highway 55 to Glenwood Avenue, or is it a wait-and-see situation with the new routing for the Blue Line Extension being studied?

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby twincitizen » May 25th, 2021, 9:33 am

I'm curious about that too, and would guess they're waiting out the Blue Line process. The main argument for moving C Line service to Glenwood was that Olson would be overserved, with trains coming every 10 minutes and aBRT doing the same. With it looking pretty certain the Blue Line will not run down Olson, I'd guess they will leave the C Line in place and not move it to Glenwood. Looking longer-term, maybe Olson gets additional all-day local service and Plymouth's desired BRT line, then maybe they shift the C Line to Glenwood. Since they straightened out the 9, all trips now run down Glenwood to Penn (rather than some cutting down Cedar Lake Rd), so service is a little improved on that corridor. Maybe leave the C Line on Olson and shift the 19 local to Glenwood to further improve Glenwood frequencies? Without light rail coming, it's easy to imagine converting the outer lanes of Olson to bus-only lanes for the C Line and future 55 corridor BRT to Plymouth, which could share stations. That seems more likely than building aBRT stations on Glenwood and underserving the existing demand for transit on Olson.

Leaving the C Line dead-ending downtown long-term is another curious choice. That seemed fine as a planning decision to quickly get the 19 upgraded, but not penciling in anything for the next 5+ years is disappointing. I understand they have the electric bus problems to sort out on that line, so they may not want to extend the route today, but it's weird to just end it at 8th & Chicago indefinitely. Long term, I'd love to see the C Line go straight down Cedar to 66th (Cedar Point Commons) in Richfield, as that would be great for the overall network. But in the near term, why not swing up Chicago (or 11th Ave) and put the terminal/layover at Gold Medal Park? That would create some trips that aren't possible today and give folks at all those condos a quick ride into the downtown core.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » May 25th, 2021, 10:56 am

I can't help but suspect that the dead-ending of the C Line downtown is to make sure it's not too long of a route to glue the 724 onto on the northern end, when it comes time to aBRT that route. Having it swing up 11th to Gold Medal Park would be a good idea though, when someone works up the courage to remove even more of the street parking from that area.
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alexschief
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby alexschief » May 26th, 2021, 8:26 am

I wonder if we could see a shorter extension of the F Line, just down to Lake Street or so, rather than insisting that no transit improvements can happen for Nicollet until such time as we muster the political will and funding to build the whole ten miles down to the river in one go. Then, when we do get that will and funding lined up, the Nicollet Line could extend up to Lowry, doubling frequency on the busiest part of the corridor and allowing at least some one-seat rides through downtown.
That was a comment that I also submitted during the route selection process. The only reason I discount it now is that if it was going to happen, I imagine it already would've been selected.

But we've seen routes like the B and E Lines be extended after route-specific planning started, and it's certainly a good idea, so maybe it's not a lost cause just yet.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby mattaudio » May 26th, 2021, 11:21 am

C is for Cedar. Extend it south.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Trademark » May 26th, 2021, 12:38 pm

I can't help but suspect that the dead-ending of the C Line downtown is to make sure it's not too long of a route to glue the 724 onto on the northern end, when it comes time to aBRT that route. Having it swing up 11th to Gold Medal Park would be a good idea though, when someone works up the courage to remove even more of the street parking from that area.
Two great ideas!

Doubling up the 18 and the 10 to Lake street and Lowry is so smart. We should definitely push for this to be an option.

The 724 is one of the most underrated routes. It serves so much housing. The one thing I would consider with that though is instead of running it to the starlite keeping it going north on zane and connect it to the end of the blue line. Then maybe adding an east west connection from maple grove to starlite to the future 252 BRT if they end up building that. Maybe even crossing the river and connecting to the F Line near where the cub is just north of University and 694.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby EOst » May 26th, 2021, 1:04 pm

Run the Red Line north as a hybrid arterial/highway BRT, and run C down Riverside and Franklin to the Green Line.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby twincitizen » May 26th, 2021, 1:30 pm

Run the Red Line north as a hybrid arterial/highway BRT, and run C down Riverside and Franklin to the Green Line.
I don't hate it, but with how volatile of a regional transit partner Dakota County has been, I wouldn't plan on doing anything with the current Red Line. Dakota County's only transit priority is extending the Red (and Orange) Lines southward into Lakeville. Even with Metro Transit recently taking over operation of the Red Line from MVTA, Dakota County still "owns" it, at least as far as future planning/extension goes. And they haven't been interested in anything other than expanding service within the county. To refresh everyone's memory on how big of a pain in the ass Dakota County was when Metro Transit considered calling the aBRT system "Rapid", right around the time the Red Line was opening, check this out (and follow the link to the Strib story for some truly dumb quotes): viewtopic.php?f=18&t=217&start=20#p12433

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2021, 8:28 am

If Metro Transit took over some of the Red Line operating costs, I bet Dakota would let them extend it wherever they wanted.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby twincitizen » May 27th, 2021, 8:54 am

Honestly, the red line is such a poor performer, it should be downgraded to an aBRT letter rather than a color. And that will probably require literally paying off Dakota County so they don't pitch another fit. With its ridership and service span/frequency, it no longer belongs with the color "METRO" lines. The other benefit of doing so is that Red will be freed up for the Riverview Line, which is going to be necessary at some point unless we're calling that one pink or brown or magenta, since purple is apparently claimed by the Rush Line

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » May 27th, 2021, 2:38 pm

With 30-minute midday frequency, it doesn't belong with the lettered lines either. They should cut it loose entirely. If MVTA wants to keep running it as the Apple Line or something, they can go ahead.
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby twincitizen » May 27th, 2021, 2:58 pm

I think you're right on that, but Metro Transit probably screwed the pooch by taking over operations from MVTA (for reasons still unclear to me). No takebacksies, as they say.

IMO the Red Line should have been branded as the "Blue Line link" bus from day one, making it clear that it was never meant to be anything more than that.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Bakken2016 » May 27th, 2021, 3:13 pm

I think you're right on that, but Metro Transit probably screwed the pooch by taking over operations from MVTA (for reasons still unclear to me). No takebacksies, as they say.

IMO the Red Line should have been branded as the "Blue Line link" bus from day one, making it clear that it was never meant to be anything more than that.
The Met Council owns it and contracts it, they decided last year that it would be cheaper and have one provider for METRO services, so they terminated the contract with MVTA.


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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Hero » May 29th, 2021, 12:56 am

a new aBRT line down University NE/SE to Cleveland Ave in St. Paul and ending at the Ford Site.
I like this idea. Not all routes need to go downtown.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Hero » May 29th, 2021, 1:16 am

C is for Cedar. Extend it south.
I'd rather turn the 515 north on Cedar, across the 10th Ave bridge, through the industrial park and terminate at Rosedale. Maybe knock the first 5 off and call it the 15.

Then shift route 14 to Richfield Parkway with a stop between Target and Home Depot continue to Diagonal Boulevard to Bloomington Avenue to 77th under Cedar (when the underpass is competed) and terminate at terminal 1.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby alexschief » June 23rd, 2021, 1:36 pm

The MN legislature's transportation omnibus bill will fully fund the E Line and mostly fund the F Line. Really good news, and a relief to get that money locked down after how it was like pulling teeth to get the B and D Lines funded.

The earlier discussion gets going on funding the G Line, the better. I'd hope that Metro Transit is pushed to move faster on aBRT projects. Ramsey County should get in their ear.

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Trademark » June 23rd, 2021, 3:33 pm

The MN legislature's transportation omnibus bill will fully fund the E Line and mostly fund the F Line. Really good news, and a relief to get that money locked down after how it was like pulling teeth to get the B and D Lines funded.

The earlier discussion gets going on funding the G Line, the better. I'd hope that Metro Transit is pushed to move faster on aBRT projects. Ramsey County should get in their ear.
Hopefully that means we can shoot for a 2025 opening of the E Line and 2026 or 2027 for the F Line

With Orange Line in 2021
D Line in 2022
Southwest in 2023
B Line and Gold Line in 2024
Hopefully E Line in 2025
Rush Line in 2026
And Hopefully F Line in 2027

We got a nice group of projects coming up. It could always be more but it's better then a lot of other cities right now.


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