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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 9:50 am
by Tcmetro
A presentation has been posted about the results of the Highway 36 Transit Study.

The recommendation for the short-term (0-2 years) is to study and contract an on-demand transit service in the Stillwater-Oak Park Heights-Bayport area and to continue transit, biking, and ped infrastructure in the corridor.

For the mid-term (3-5 years) the recommendation is to further scope transit improvements, identify funding, set up governance, and monitor needs for peak-period express service.

The mid-term recommendation is also to develop:
  • A high-frequency service (10-15 mins) between Downtown Minneapolis, the University of Minnesota, and Maplewood Mall.
  • A lower frequency service (30 mins) between Maplewood Mall and the Stillwater-Oak Park Heights-Bayport area.
  • Continue to evaluate the needs for peak-period express service in the corridor.
There's a few things that jump out to me about the study:
  • The recommendation for the high-frequency service wholly lies within Hennepin and Ramsey Counties, even though the study was conducted by Washington County. It sounds like it is going to be dependent on those counties having interest in developing transit in the corridor.
  • Washington County should evaluate connecting the Stillwater area to the Gold Line. There isn't much transit in the county currently, so a broader analysis might find that different or additional connections should be added.
  • The study presentation (we don't have any detailed results yet) doesn't seem to show that Stillwater needs a direct bus connection to Minneapolis. I think that is already shown by the lack of an existing route and also the sheer distance between the two cities.
  • A Highway 36 BRT could take advantage of transit investments that are completed or underway. A BRT route that follows the recommended service between Minneapolis and Maplewood Mall could take advantage of bus lanes and stops in Downtown Minneapolis for the arterial BRT network, the Washington Ave LRT/Bus lanes, the U of M Transitway, the Rosedale Transit Center, the 36/Rice Park and Ride, and the Rush Line between English/36 and Maplewood Mall. The major investments would be in the additional buses (which may not be needed if peak service levels contract due to more working from home) and paying operational costs for additional service.
Here is the project webpage:
https://www.co.washington.mn.us/36transit

Here is the project presentation:
https://hw36transit.wpengine.com/

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 10:20 am
by mamundsen
I’m questioning how this will be different from rt 270? Pre-Covid the schedule was 10-15 frequency during peak hours. As far as connecting to the U, I see the time loss to go down 280 and cut though the U as a big negative that will have Minneapolis riders upset. A transfer to the future E line will better serve those wanting to go to the U.

With this study and Rush line pointing at Maplewood Mall as a key point, I hope this drives mixed use redevelopment of the parking lots and vacant big box, a road diet on White Bear Ave, and better bike and ped connections to the neighborhoods. I live 1.1 mile from the transit center but in current conditions would NEVER walk or bike in this area.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 2:36 pm
by Tiller
As of now the Park and Ride at the Maplewood Mall is basically empty. Express bus service ridership has cratered throughout the metro.

They're talking about a limited-stop service along highway 36 from the Maplewood Mall to Downtown Minneapolis. It basically sounds like what was studied (and was projected to have high ridership) in the original Highway Transitway Corridor Study, except it ends at the Maplewood Mall instead of Hadley Ave, and it gets downtown via the U of M campus.

None of this is final in any way though, because this project will require buy-in from local policy makers all along highway 36, including in Hennepin and Ramsey County. So expect lots of process.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 4:41 pm
by Trademark
I’m questioning how this will be different from rt 270? Pre-Covid the schedule was 10-15 frequency during peak hours. As far as connecting to the U, I see the time loss to go down 280 and cut though the U as a big negative that will have Minneapolis riders upset. A transfer to the future E line will better serve those wanting to go to the U.

With this study and Rush line pointing at Maplewood Mall as a key point, I hope this drives mixed use redevelopment of the parking lots and vacant big box, a road diet on White Bear Ave, and better bike and ped connections to the neighborhoods. I live 1.1 mile from the transit center but in current conditions would NEVER walk or bike in this area.
A station at University/4th street to connect to the E line and the Quarry on 35W would be nice to see. They could serve as future connections for 35W brt north too. (Although considering all the reconstruction happening now I'd have to say is doubtful happening)

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 6:48 pm
by DanPatchToget
Scenario 2 is the best to me, though I prefer BRT being routed on 35W North and have an online station at University/4th like Trademark mentioned.

Considering how liberal our region is with using the term BRT, I'm skeptical this would be anything close to actual BRT instead of something like the Red Line.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 1st, 2021, 9:45 pm
by Trademark
If only there was a connection from 35W northbound to the 3rd Street mini freeway. 3rd Street and 4th Street would work really well for an East-West alternative to MARQ2. With two lanes of bus only traffic and a connection on the west side of town too to the freeway.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 2nd, 2021, 6:38 am
by Tcmetro
Isn't it simpler to continue to use the 3rd/Central to University/4th St routing? I imagine that it's pretty competitive to any east-west routing through downtown and eliminates the need for another freeway station.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 2nd, 2021, 7:52 am
by Trademark
Isn't it simpler to continue to use the 3rd/Central to University/4th St routing? I imagine that it's pretty competitive to any east-west routing through downtown and eliminates the need for another freeway station.
It does limit people who want to go to downtown anywhere east of Hennepin though. I imagine more traffic wants to go there than to go in that part of Northeast. Plus being able to handle game day traffic from the US Bank stadium would be nice.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 3rd, 2021, 3:14 pm
by twincitizen
Since we're now talking about the inner portion of a 35W/36 route, watch this link for updates on MnDOT's new "35W North Gateway" study from Park Ave. in Minneapolis to Co. Rd. C in Roseville. If there were ever an opportunity to have an early impact on where potential freeway BRT stations would be added to the corridor, it's probably through this public process. Obviously this is something that will take many years to plan, fund, and build, but with freeway-running BRT, station locations are pretty much limited to where you've already got bridges, connecting bus routes, etc. This MnDOT process won't identify a specific type of transit service or stations, but it will set the table for future decisions on lanes, bridge locations, etc. I don't expect that any freeway BRT on this route will have that many stations inside Mpls city limits (not including downtown terminus), so it's pretty important that they get the stations right. On a curvy, tightly constricted corridor like 35W through Northeast Mpls, I think we want to have a good idea pretty early on of where in-line BRT stations are / are not possible.


EDIT: Of course after typing all that I open the Washington County study to see that they propose to avoid 35W altogether by using 36>280>UMN Transitway>Green Line Transitway (Washington Ave SE) to get into downtown. That's different...but might be crazy enough to work(?) It doesn't address the need for all-day high-frequency transit between downtown>Quarry>Rosedale area, but it does a different thing seemingly very efficiently (and maybe with better ridership?) More ways to get people onto campus from different parts of the metro without their cars is always a good thing. The lesson learned from the Green Line is never underestimate the demand for transit service going through the heart of campus. Also, it makes sense to more fully utilize these transit corridors through campus. Another reason I don't hate it is that it could still interline with the Orange Line, if that's something Metro Transit wants to do. The Orange Line could turn right onto Washington (or reestablish transit lanes on 3rd/4th Streets), continuing on as this new line.

Final thought: this actually good BRT line is probably resigned to dying on the vine because it is basically 100% Ramsey County's baby now. While it would serve the U and downtown, it's basically using existing transitways in Minneapolis / Hennepin County. Maybe some new station platforms downtown; I could see this get extended up Washington Avenue and sharing platforms with the planned Route 3 aBRT. Why do I see this dying as a Ramsey project? Mainly because it would be taking a back seat to Riverview and Rush Line, and neither of those projects are far enough along that county commissioners will enthusiastically add another one to the queue.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 8:34 am
by Trademark
I don't know if anyone's posted something about this before. But I was looking through the 94/252 study page where they are just beginning the EIS and found this

"This study is examining four primary transit options along the I-94 and Hwy 252 corridors:

Concept A includes Highway BRT service along I-94 and I-694 to Maple Grove Transit Station.

Concept B includes Highway BRT service along I-94 and Hwy 252 to Northtown Transit Center in Blaine.

Concept C includes up to 3 new station(s) along I-94 in North Minneapolis, as well as connecting local and express bus service improvements.

Concept D includes local and express service improvements with no new stations."

If they are considering three new stations in Minneapolis even without highway brt. An actual highway brt could be much better then what the 2014 study highway transitway corridor study showed. I'm thinking potential stations at Broadway, Lowry, and somewhere near dowling or Camden.

Which do y'all think would be a better terminus of the route, Maple grove or Northtown? Also if it goes to Maple Grove what do you think would be the best way to connect it to the blue line?

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 9:35 am
by SurlyLHT
First, I wish they would remove some lanes from 94 in Mpls and narrow the trench. Second, it should go to Northtown since there are less transit options there. The 10 bus and 852 are the main routes relating to this corridor. (The 25 is farther east and others have super limited service.)

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 9:43 am
by Trademark
First, I wish they would remove some lanes from 94 in Mpls and narrow the trench. Second, it should go to Northtown since there are less transit options there. The 10 bus and 852 are the main routes relating to this corridor. (The 25 is farther east and others have super limited service.)
I highly doubt that removing lanes is even in the scope of the project unless your talking about removing General purpose lanes for HOT lanes.

Also they are already going to be building the F Line from Northtown to Downtown minneapolis. This BRT though could be a nice express version of that route tho as well as providing access from North Minneapolis to Northtown.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 11:13 am
by DanPatchToget
I'm just going to go ahead and assume this would be another half-baked "BRT" service that's part of a highway expansion like the Orange Line and Red Line.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 1:09 pm
by Trademark
I'm just going to go ahead and assume this would be another half-baked "BRT" service that's part of a highway expansion like the Orange Line and Red Line.
The location alone of this project prevents it from being the red line. And I'm curious what's half-baked about the orange line too you? I'm honestly more excited for that project then I am the green line extension. The only thing I wish they could have added would have been a franklin ave station (which never would have happened considering the space needed and engineering challenges). The amount that this project will open up the southside especially near lake street is a steal for the cost of this project.

Plus with 3 brt stations in north Minneapolis, the amount of connectivity that can be had from getting to somewhere like dowling ave to downtown in like 7 minutes is so much better then the c or d lines can give us and the blue line won't come up far enough. With intersecting east west bus routes connecting with the stations and increased 30 and 32 bus routes also it will have rippling affects into northeast too.

I get that you have the perspective of highways bad but it's not like there's anything else on the table that could replicate this mobility to this section of north Minneapolis.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 1:22 pm
by DanPatchToget
I'm just going to go ahead and assume this would be another half-baked "BRT" service that's part of a highway expansion like the Orange Line and Red Line.
The location alone of this project prevents it from being the red line. And I'm curious what's half-baked about the orange line too you? I'm honestly more excited for that project then I am the green line extension. The only thing I wish they could have added would have been a franklin ave station (which never would have happened considering the space needed and engineering challenges). The amount that this project will open up the southside especially near lake street is a steal for the cost of this project.

Plus with 3 brt stations in north Minneapolis, the amount of connectivity that can be had from getting to somewhere like dowling ave to downtown in like 7 minutes is so much better then the c or d lines can give us and the blue line won't come up far enough. With intersecting east west bus routes connecting with the stations and increased 30 and 32 bus routes also it will have rippling affects into northeast too.

I get that you have the perspective of highways bad but it's not like there's anything else on the table that could replicate this mobility to this section of north Minneapolis.
It's not the location that's the issue, it's how "BRT" is implemented. If it's like the Red Line where buses are in mixed-traffic the whole time and there's limited accessibility to stations then it's not actual BRT and won't get a lot of riders. If we want real BRT along I-94 North that truly benefits North Minneapolis then it would have dedicated lanes on the west side of the trench so people don't have to walk to the middle of the freeway to get to stations. Or even better would be a dedicated busway at street level that goes along the west side of the I-94 North trench, similar to what they're going to do for the Gold Line. However, that requires taking away space from cars and/or spending much more money on transit, two things that MnDOT isn't exactly favorable of doing.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 1:26 pm
by Tcmetro
There used to be freeway stops at 49th and 53rd Aves. N, but those were discontinued awhile ago, probably a combination of limited service and low demand in that area.

The biggest problem with more freeway stations is that they are expensive and are usually in areas that serve transit poorly. Inconvenience of transferring is another issue, for example 46th St & 35W which never worked as intended because riders preferred the one-seat ride on the 146 instead of transferring.

Even potential stops like Dowling are close enough to downtown that it would be faster to catch the quickest north-south bus than take a crosstown bus and spend time transferring.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 1:51 pm
by Trademark
I'm just going to go ahead and assume this would be another half-baked "BRT" service that's part of a highway expansion like the Orange Line and Red Line.
The location alone of this project prevents it from being the red line. And I'm curious what's half-baked about the orange line too you? I'm honestly more excited for that project then I am the green line extension. The only thing I wish they could have added would have been a franklin ave station (which never would have happened considering the space needed and engineering challenges). The amount that this project will open up the southside especially near lake street is a steal for the cost of this project.

Plus with 3 brt stations in north Minneapolis, the amount of connectivity that can be had from getting to somewhere like dowling ave to downtown in like 7 minutes is so much better then the c or d lines can give us and the blue line won't come up far enough. With intersecting east west bus routes connecting with the stations and increased 30 and 32 bus routes also it will have rippling affects into northeast too.

I get that you have the perspective of highways bad but it's not like there's anything else on the table that could replicate this mobility to this section of north Minneapolis.
It's not the location that's the issue, it's how "BRT" is implemented. If it's like the Red Line where buses are in mixed-traffic the whole time and there's limited accessibility to stations then it's not actual BRT and won't get a lot of riders. If we want real BRT along I-94 North that truly benefits North Minneapolis then it would have dedicated lanes on the west side of the trench so people don't have to walk to the middle of the freeway to get to stations. Or even better would be a dedicated busway at street level that goes along the west side of the I-94 North trench, similar to what they're going to do for the Gold Line. However, that requires taking away space from cars and/or spending much more money on transit, two things that MnDOT isn't exactly favorable of doing.
I still say the orange line will be a better project then the gold line too. I have good experiences using the silver line in LA. It gets a lot of hate because of its accessibility to surrounding areas at times but the behemoth of the 110 freeway is not 94. Connectivity and speed are real benefits of highway brt and can't be matched by a road that doesn't have crossing gates with a speed limit of 35 mph. That is great for local connections but we have plenty of options for that in North minneapolis already.

I can say with almost complete certainty that there will be MnPass lanes on 94. And I'm sure that busses will use these as there's already a plan for an online station at Lowry. Also those MnPass lanes are supposed to have a direct connection to the 4th Street ramp. Once again your comparing this to the red line where there is no comparison. This line isn't starting in rogers and ending in brooklyn park to connect people to the blue line. This is a direct connection to the heart of downtown utilizing a corridor that already sees a lot of express bus trips just like 35w. So if your going to make comparisons, make them to the orange line.

While stations on the west side of the freeway would be nice, the added cost to fit exit ramps over the additional roadway isn't worth saving maybe 100 feet of walking distance? Plus at least in Lowrys case, the upper harbor development will also be a major trip generator. And the industrial jobs west of 94 are a source of good paying jobs for many people.

Also responding to TC metros point. While yes if you live right by the D line it could be faster to take it downtown but both that and the C line are susceptible to backups as they operate in a single mixed traffic lane versus a HOT lane and the 4th Street ramps dropping someone into the heart of downtown. As someone who has taken the downtown extension of the 721 bus versus the c line and the 5 any chance I could get even with added walking distance it is always much faster. This project is a supercharged 721 with all day quality service that also has the potential to connect to suburban destinations (although I'm less bullish on the project after minneapolis)

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 1:53 pm
by Trademark
There used to be freeway stops at 49th and 53rd Aves. N, but those were discontinued awhile ago, probably a combination of limited service and low demand in that area.

The biggest problem with more freeway stations is that they are expensive and are usually in areas that serve transit poorly. Inconvenience of transferring is another issue, for example 46th St & 35W which never worked as intended because riders preferred the one-seat ride on the 146 instead of transferring.

Even potential stops like Dowling are close enough to downtown that it would be faster to catch the quickest north-south bus than take a crosstown bus and spend time transferring.
Response above, Also I think the branding and marketing and the ability for consistent service will change the perception and ridership of the 46th street station after the Orange line opens.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 2:03 pm
by DanPatchToget


The location alone of this project prevents it from being the red line. And I'm curious what's half-baked about the orange line too you? I'm honestly more excited for that project then I am the green line extension. The only thing I wish they could have added would have been a franklin ave station (which never would have happened considering the space needed and engineering challenges). The amount that this project will open up the southside especially near lake street is a steal for the cost of this project.

Plus with 3 brt stations in north Minneapolis, the amount of connectivity that can be had from getting to somewhere like dowling ave to downtown in like 7 minutes is so much better then the c or d lines can give us and the blue line won't come up far enough. With intersecting east west bus routes connecting with the stations and increased 30 and 32 bus routes also it will have rippling affects into northeast too.

I get that you have the perspective of highways bad but it's not like there's anything else on the table that could replicate this mobility to this section of north Minneapolis.
It's not the location that's the issue, it's how "BRT" is implemented. If it's like the Red Line where buses are in mixed-traffic the whole time and there's limited accessibility to stations then it's not actual BRT and won't get a lot of riders. If we want real BRT along I-94 North that truly benefits North Minneapolis then it would have dedicated lanes on the west side of the trench so people don't have to walk to the middle of the freeway to get to stations. Or even better would be a dedicated busway at street level that goes along the west side of the I-94 North trench, similar to what they're going to do for the Gold Line. However, that requires taking away space from cars and/or spending much more money on transit, two things that MnDOT isn't exactly favorable of doing.
I still say the orange line will be a better project then the gold line too. I have good experiences using the silver line in LA. It gets a lot of hate because of its accessibility to surrounding areas at times but the behemoth of the 110 freeway is not 94. Connectivity and speed are real benefits of highway brt and can't be matched by a road that doesn't have crossing gates with a speed limit of 35 mph. That is great for local connections but we have plenty of options for that in North minneapolis already.

I can say with almost complete certainty that there will be MnPass lanes on 94. And I'm sure that busses will use these as there's already a plan for an online station at Lowry. Also those MnPass lanes are supposed to have a direct connection to the 4th Street ramp. Once again your comparing this to the red line where there is no comparison. This line isn't starting in rogers and ending in brooklyn park to connect people to the blue line. This is a direct connection to the heart of downtown utilizing a corridor that already sees a lot of express bus trips just like 35w. So if your going to make comparisons, make them to the orange line.

While stations on the west side of the freeway would be nice, the added cost to fit exit ramps over the additional roadway isn't worth saving maybe 100 feet of walking distance? Plus at least in Lowrys case, the upper harbor development will also be a major trip generator. And the industrial jobs west of 94 are a source of good paying jobs for many people.

Also responding to TC metros point. While yes if you live right by the D line it could be faster to take it downtown but both that and the C line are susceptible to backups as they operate in a single mixed traffic lane versus a HOT lane and the 4th Street ramps dropping someone into the heart of downtown. As someone who has taken the downtown extension of the 721 bus versus the c line and the 5 any chance I could get even with added walking distance it is always much faster. This project is a supercharged 721 with all day quality service that also has the potential to connect to suburban destinations (although I'm less bullish on the project after minneapolis)
I'm not wasting my time going through all of this with you. If you want to see these half-baked so-called BRT lines through rose-tinted glasses then that's your choice. I on the other hand will be much more critical.

Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Posted: May 17th, 2021, 3:16 pm
by MNdible
Inconvenience of transferring is another issue, for example 46th St & 35W which never worked as intended because riders preferred the one-seat ride on the 146 instead of transferring.
The benefit of these BRT routes within the urban core will usually be for reverse commuters, unless you happen to live very close to the station. This benefit should become more evident when the Red Line, with it's increased and regular frequencies, starts to operate.

I'll be interested to see if we eventually get some redevelopment around the stations -- the block faces between Nicollet and 35W would seem to be great candidates, and if the redevelopment allowed a slight expansion of the ROW to improve sidewalks, etc. that would be another benefit.