Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Mdcastle
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » June 7th, 2021, 7:15 am

My vague recollection is that local businesses were all gung-ho about the exit ramp to make it easy for people to drive to their businesses from the north, but they were substantially less enthusiastic about making it easy for people to get home once they had patronized their businesses. That and that the entrance ramp would require braiding but the exit ramp would not and the presence of the Franklin ramp be maintained meant the entrance ramp was dropped.

There's also something to be said for picking your battles. 35W north of 76th has 60 year concrete that's now 0-20 years old. It would be a big battle to redo that. 35W south of 76th has 30 year concrete that's now 60 years old. A good battle to fight would be to move operations to the center, including a centerline 98th Street station and left bus only entrance and exit ramps at 13 and American.

twincitizen
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby twincitizen » July 21st, 2021, 10:54 am

Do we know if the Orange Line (and related local bus changes) will begin service with the December pick? The website still says opening late 2021, and as far as we know, the 35W roadwork is on schedule to be substantially complete by that time. I ask because both the A and C Lines opened 6 months late, in June of the following year, despite having been announced for "Late 2015/2018" throughout their planning phases. With the fall schedule changes coming up, I'd think Metro Transit would know pretty definitively at this point if December is going to stick or not.

Have the Orange Line buses already been delivered?

Bakken2016
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Bakken2016 » July 27th, 2021, 1:30 pm

Do we know if the Orange Line (and related local bus changes) will begin service with the December pick? The website still says opening late 2021, and as far as we know, the 35W roadwork is on schedule to be substantially complete by that time. I ask because both the A and C Lines opened 6 months late, in June of the following year, despite having been announced for "Late 2015/2018" throughout their planning phases. With the fall schedule changes coming up, I'd think Metro Transit would know pretty definitively at this point if December is going to stick or not.

Have the Orange Line buses already been delivered?
Yes, still planned for the December Pick. I don’t believe the buses have been delivered yet, I walk through Heywood Garage regularly and haven’t seen them.


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DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 8th, 2021, 5:00 pm

Not a huge update but the Orange Line platforms at South Bloomington Transit Center appear to be substantially complete. The screens that will show real-time bus arrivals are on, but it just shows a blank screen with "No Signal" for now. No ticket vending machines yet.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby tmart » August 9th, 2021, 9:08 am

Not a huge update but the Orange Line platforms at South Bloomington Transit Center appear to be substantially complete. The screens that will show real-time bus arrivals are on, but it just shows a blank screen with "No Signal" for now. No ticket vending machines yet.
Just looked at the plans for this station and it looks like the Southbound platform is also on the Northbound ramp/frontage road; is that really true? So southbound buses will have to exit the freeway, turn left onto 98th, cross the highway, drive around the perimeter of the transit center, turn left onto 98th again, and finally get back on the highway? If so, I guess southbound trips are just gonna be 5+ minutes longer than northbound ones. Yikes.

(I guess this is more-or-less the status quo for the existing express buses that serve the transit center, but it's still surprising to see on a "BRT" project.)

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 9th, 2021, 9:39 am

Not a huge update but the Orange Line platforms at South Bloomington Transit Center appear to be substantially complete. The screens that will show real-time bus arrivals are on, but it just shows a blank screen with "No Signal" for now. No ticket vending machines yet.
Just looked at the plans for this station and it looks like the Southbound platform is also on the Northbound ramp/frontage road; is that really true? So southbound buses will have to exit the freeway, turn left onto 98th, cross the highway, drive around the perimeter of the transit center, turn left onto 98th again, and finally get back on the highway? If so, I guess southbound trips are just gonna be 5+ minutes longer than northbound ones. Yikes.

(I guess this is more-or-less the status quo for the existing express buses that serve the transit center, but it's still surprising to see on a "BRT" project.)
You are correct. I hope eventually they'll build an online station like the one at I-35W & 46th, as well as make substantial improvements for biking and walking on the 98th Street bridge over 35W. I know they've made some minor improvements, but of course a lot more could be done.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » August 9th, 2021, 10:50 am

Not a huge update but the Orange Line platforms at South Bloomington Transit Center appear to be substantially complete. The screens that will show real-time bus arrivals are on, but it just shows a blank screen with "No Signal" for now. No ticket vending machines yet.
Just looked at the plans for this station and it looks like the Southbound platform is also on the Northbound ramp/frontage road; is that really true? So southbound buses will have to exit the freeway, turn left onto 98th, cross the highway, drive around the perimeter of the transit center, turn left onto 98th again, and finally get back on the highway? If so, I guess southbound trips are just gonna be 5+ minutes longer than northbound ones. Yikes.

(I guess this is more-or-less the status quo for the existing express buses that serve the transit center, but it's still surprising to see on a "BRT" project.)
You are correct. I hope eventually they'll build an online station like the one at I-35W & 46th, as well as make substantial improvements for biking and walking on the 98th Street bridge over 35W. I know they've made some minor improvements, but of course a lot more could be done.
I agree that an online station would be the best. But I think that allowing the buses to have easy transfers to other south Bloomington routes especially since a lot of them won't be walk ups makes sense.

Signal priority on the left turns onto 98th street are going to be crucial. At least they have the little mini cloverleaf to to back onto 35w south so there isn't 3 left turns needed.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby tmart » August 9th, 2021, 12:01 pm

Even if a full, gold-standard, center-running station was never on the table, something like this would have represented a huge improvement without any really major changes to the existing configuration:

Image

Ah, well. Maybe if we're very lucky the next time they rebuild this segment of 35W they'll consider improving the bus configuration.

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » August 9th, 2021, 1:00 pm

Even if a full, gold-standard, center-running station was never on the table, something like this would have represented a huge improvement without any really major changes to the existing configuration:

Image

Ah, well. Maybe if we're very lucky the next time they rebuild this segment of 35W they'll consider improving the bus configuration.
I love this idea. If they would have removed the cloverleaf lane they could have used the right lane on both side as a queing location for transfers and moved the transfer station right to the bridge. And repurposed some of the current transfer station land to some nice Transit Oriented Development.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 9th, 2021, 3:59 pm

Isn't the 98th Street bridge over 35W going to be replaced in the not-too-distant future? I would hope they'll take into account speeding up the travel time for southbound Orange Line buses and making the crossing on the bridge by foot and bike much safer and easier.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby MNdible » August 9th, 2021, 4:03 pm

Meh. While something like this would modestly improve run time, it's going to significantly worsen the experience for riders who are making connections or using the park-and-ride here. I think the impulse to ensure bus priority through here is the right way to go. I'm not sure what ridership projections are for this, but wouldn't we expect that the bulk of riders have already disembarked by this stop?

Eventually, when it's coupled with a bigger strategy that would provide center platforms at 66th and (somehow?) center running off ramps to access the Knox Avenue transitway, a new center platform might make sense here.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 9th, 2021, 4:29 pm

Meh. While something like this would modestly improve run time, it's going to significantly worsen the experience for riders who are making connections or using the park-and-ride here. I think the impulse to ensure bus priority through here is the right way to go. I'm not sure what ridership projections are for this, but wouldn't we expect that the bulk of riders have already disembarked by this stop?

Eventually, when it's coupled with a bigger strategy that would provide center platforms at 66th and (somehow?) center running off ramps to access the Knox Avenue transitway, a new center platform might make sense here.
Unless buses get signal preemption, I don't think there's any way to improve the existing planned routing for southbound buses at South Bloomington TC. Part of BRT is having a ride experience similar to light rail. Six turns with three signalized intersections to cross is not how light rail is designed.

Ideally for me the Orange Line would have an online station at South Bloomington TC with bus stops on the bridge for east-west local service like at 46th & I-35W. For other transfers or going to the park & ride the sidewalks are wider and the stoplights for traffic coming off northbound 35W are placed near-side so drivers are forced to stop before the crosswalk. Also have a center running on/off ramp at 82nd Street so buses don't have to merge across all lanes going between 98th and 82nd.

Mdcastle
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » August 9th, 2021, 7:02 pm

As someone who has to deal with the traffic in the area multiple times a week since this is the closest exit to my house, I don't want to see the loop go. Traffic is horrible enough even with the loop, and I really wish they had built the proposed companion loop in the southeast. It just kept getting deferred again and again and never happened.

The bridge is tentatively planned to be replaced in the mid 2030s. The timing of this is why more dramatic bus or pedestrian improvements are planned. You don't want to say widen the bridge for sidewalks or build an elevator for a platform when the entire bridge is coming down in 15 years and you can do things the way you want to, but you don't want to go tearing down a bridge with 15 years or life left just to clear way other improvements. I like the idea of a center platform and center ramps at 82nd (or American). Too bad the I-494 plans have no provision for this. The pavement is original from 1956 and was due for replacement 30 years ago. The pavement wasn't replaced with the HOV lane addition like other segments because at the time the HOV lanes were considered temporary until light rail.

Yeah, a southbound platform on the off-ramp would suck for park and riders and if I ever was force to work downtown, might factor into my decision to drive 3/4 of a mile to the transit station or drive all the way downtown (and currently if I chose a bus I'd be able to hop on the 524 two houses away), but for transfers you could have a bus stop adjacent on 98th. There's also the proposal for building a pedestrian overpass at 102nd or 99th; if it happens at 99th you could build a station on the on ramp and it would suck a lot less for them.

The very first deviation from the national standard of far side stoplights is not going to happen here and I don't want to see it here because of how often a truck stopped in front of me would block my view of the lights. I am fine with a no turn on red considering the number of crashes (including one car that got flipped over) I've seen here where someone tries to make a right turn and can't get a good view of or misjudges the speed of traffic that comes flying

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 9th, 2021, 7:46 pm


The very first deviation from the national standard of far side stoplights is not going to happen here and I don't want to see it here because of how often a truck stopped in front of me would block my view of the lights. I am fine with a no turn on red considering the number of crashes (including one car that got flipped over) I've seen here where someone tries to make a right turn and can't get a good view of or misjudges the speed of traffic that comes flying
Trucks block the view of the light no matter where they're placed. And while I do support no right turns on red that doesn't solve the issue of drivers stopping in the middle of the crosswalk. About a month ago I was checking out progress on the Orange Line platforms at South Bloomington on my bike and headed west towards home. I was waiting to cross the northbound off-ramp at 98th, I get the walk signal to proceed across the crosswalk, but a car that was trying to get through before the light turned red slammed on the brakes and stopped in the middle of the crosswalk. Keep in mind they were turning left, so prohibiting right turn on red wouldn't have prevented that.

If near-side signals work on highway off-ramps in cities like Amsterdam then they can work in Bloomington. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3399532 ... 384!8i8192

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby tmart » August 9th, 2021, 8:58 pm

Meh. While something like this would modestly improve run time, it's going to significantly worsen the experience for riders who are making connections or using the park-and-ride here. I think the impulse to ensure bus priority through here is the right way to go.
By my calculation it would shave something like 3/4 mile off the route length, and as others have pointed out, many turns and stoplights. That probably adds up to 5 minutes or so, which is more than a modest improvement IMO. It would also help reliability.

The walk to the park-and-ride lot would be in the neighborhood of 300-400 feet, which isn't nothing, and walking across a highway is always unpleasant. But if I were riding regularly from this spot, I'd probably say the faster service was worth those tradeoffs.
I'm not sure what ridership projections are for this, but wouldn't we expect that the bulk of riders have already disembarked by this stop?
This feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy: we don't make these investments because we expect poor ridership, and we expect poor ridership because the service quality will be poor. In any case if we don't expect significant enough ridership from the 98th and Burnsville stations to justify a meaningful chunk of the riders to still be on the bus at this point, then we should probably truncate the line at American Boulevard instead of running empty buses an extra 8+ miles each way every 10 minutes.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 9th, 2021, 10:02 pm

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... deling.pdf

Keep in mind this is from 2015 and is projected ridership for 2040. South Bloomington TC and Heart of the City/Travelers Trail are projected to have around 1,000 daily riders each. Outside of downtown the Knox Avenue stations are projected to have the highest ridership.

Mdcastle
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » August 10th, 2021, 11:45 am

Regardless of ridership times or projections, it doesn't seem to like a good investment to me to build an elaborate elevator and multi-level station on the slip lane when that will all need to be demolished when the entire bridge comes down in 15 years. Nor to demolish an overpass with 15 years of life left just because it interferes with where we'd like a station. So what we have left is the current situation or a 1200 foot walk to a station on the southbound off ramp. I'll leave it to others which option is better.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » August 10th, 2021, 2:12 pm

Regardless of ridership times or projections, it doesn't seem to like a good investment to me to build an elaborate elevator and multi-level station on the slip lane when that will all need to be demolished when the entire bridge comes down in 15 years. Nor to demolish an overpass with 15 years of life left just because it interferes with where we'd like a station. So what we have left is the current situation or a 1200 foot walk to a station on the southbound off ramp. I'll leave it to others which option is better.
Ya I agree that the timing doesn't make sense to demolish it now.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 10th, 2021, 4:29 pm

Regardless of ridership times or projections, it doesn't seem to like a good investment to me to build an elaborate elevator and multi-level station on the slip lane when that will all need to be demolished when the entire bridge comes down in 15 years. Nor to demolish an overpass with 15 years of life left just because it interferes with where we'd like a station. So what we have left is the current situation or a 1200 foot walk to a station on the southbound off ramp. I'll leave it to others which option is better.
I wasn't implying they should demolish the bridge now. As much as I'd like an online station right when the Orange Line opens, I'm okay with waiting for the bridge to be due for replacement and incorporating an online station and pedestrian infrastructure improvements with the new bridge.

Remember that around 5 years after the Red Line started operations we built an online station for it at Cedar Grove to shave some travel time and eliminate some turns. It's only 400 feet going from the Red Line platform to where the local buses stop. An online station at South Bloomington would add just 600 feet to the walking distance from the online station to where the local buses are.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby twincitizen » August 11th, 2021, 5:49 pm

While I certainly understand the desire to remove stoplights and turns from a rider experience perspective (that is, riders going past this station to/from Burnsville, which is not a lot!), you also must consider what your trip generators and walk-shed are for the station placement. And here that’s almost entirely east of the freeway to Lyndale. So having the station located on the east side of the highway is actually beneficial to building strong walk-up ridership at this particular station. West of 35w, the only potential significant trip generator is city hall employees, and even then it’s a pretty grueling 1/2-mile walk to the doors. East of 35w it is much easier to envision significant walk-up usage both now and under an intense redevelopment scenario as envisioned in the station area Master plan. So yeah it may not be ideal to have the bus exit and make a few turns here, but it is quite ideal to have the station roughly where it’s going. And for what, >95% of projected Orange Line riders this is effectively the end of the line anyways. Let’s take a wait and see approach to how many actually ride to/from Burnsville before we decide to spend tens of millions moving the 98th Street platform further away from nearly 100% of its users


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