Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 12th, 2021, 8:41 am

While I certainly understand the desire to remove stoplights and turns from a rider experience perspective (that is, riders going past this station to/from Burnsville, which is not a lot!), you also must consider what your trip generators and walk-shed are for the station placement. And here that’s almost entirely east of the freeway to Lyndale. So having the station located on the east side of the highway is actually beneficial to building strong walk-up ridership at this particular station. West of 35w, the only potential significant trip generator is city hall employees, and even then it’s a pretty grueling 1/2-mile walk to the doors. East of 35w it is much easier to envision significant walk-up usage both now and under an intense redevelopment scenario as envisioned in the station area Master plan. So yeah it may not be ideal to have the bus exit and make a few turns here, but it is quite ideal to have the station roughly where it’s going. And for what, >95% of projected Orange Line riders this is effectively the end of the line anyways. Let’s take a wait and see approach to how many actually ride to/from Burnsville before we decide to spend tens of millions moving the 98th Street platform further away from nearly 100% of its users
Like I said, it's only 600 extra feet with an online station at South Bloomington. I don't consider that a deal breaker as long as the crossing of the northbound off-ramp is much safer and more pleasant than it currently is. Also I'll reiterate that I'm not suggesting we start building an online station tomorrow or even 5 years after the Orange Line has opened like they did with the Red Line at Cedar Grove. When the bridge needs replacement, then it's time to seriously consider an online station. Plus with an Orange Line extension to the Burnsville Center area that will increase the number of riders south of the river, and perhaps that could tie into a new online station at South Bloomington to make the trip faster and more reliable for all the riders getting on/off at South Bloomington and the stations south of the river.

StandishGuy
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby StandishGuy » August 14th, 2021, 10:36 am

Meh! This entire project down the middle of a freeway in Minneapolis and through car-dominated sprawl through the suburbs is the opposite of what Metro Transit should be spending millions of dollars on. IMO it was just a strategy by MNDOT to make the I35W rebuild more palatable. I despise this project and expect it to fail like the Red Line. Yet, the region continues to go full speed ahead on other similar projects like the Gold and Purple line. Add up the projected ridership numbers of these highway BRT lines and they barely move the needle. :(

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 14th, 2021, 12:01 pm

Meh! This entire project down the middle of a freeway in Minneapolis and through car-dominated sprawl through the suburbs is the opposite of what Metro Transit should be spending millions of dollars on. IMO it was just a strategy by MNDOT to make the I35W rebuild more palatable. I despise this project and expect it to fail like the Red Line. Yet, the region continues to go full speed ahead on other similar projects like the Gold and Purple line. Add up the projected ridership numbers of these highway BRT lines and they barely move the needle. :(
I don't think I would lump in the Gold Line and Purple Line with the Red and Orange Lines since those will have dedicated busways for the majority of their routes. The Gold Line won't be on the freeway at all and the Purple Line will only be on Highway 61 for a short distance in White Bear Lake.

Do I expect the Orange Line to perform below ridership projections? Probably, but I haven't seen any near-term ridership projections so I'll wait and see. The pandemic certainly won't help bringing those numbers up.

While the Orange Line is similar to the Red Line in that it's a highway rebuild disguised as a transit project, at least the Orange Line will be a lot more than a suburban shuttle which the Red Line is. The new station at Lake & I-35W is long overdue and the fact that Cedar Grove got an online station first shows the priorities in our region when it comes to transit upgrades. Not that I'm saying we should just focus all of our transit upgrades in the urban area and pretend the ever-growing suburbs don't exist, but we need to take a step back and think about where our transit upgrades should be across the region. But with politics being a big determining factor in where the transit upgrades go that will be difficult to do.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » August 15th, 2021, 10:35 pm

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... deling.pdf

Keep in mind this is from 2015 and is projected ridership for 2040. South Bloomington TC and Heart of the City/Travelers Trail are projected to have around 1,000 daily riders each. Outside of downtown the Knox Avenue stations are projected to have the highest ridership.
How did they calculate those ridership numbers? I have a hard time believing Lake Street will be he lowest ridership stop on this route. Or that 76th, American and 98th will have more ridership than all of downtown. At least I have a better idea of why no Franklin or 38th stop was added or upgraded service for 46th.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 15th, 2021, 11:01 pm

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... deling.pdf

Keep in mind this is from 2015 and is projected ridership for 2040. South Bloomington TC and Heart of the City/Travelers Trail are projected to have around 1,000 daily riders each. Outside of downtown the Knox Avenue stations are projected to have the highest ridership.
How did they calculate those ridership numbers? I have a hard time believing Lake Street will be he lowest ridership stop on this route. Or that 76th, American and 98th will have more ridership than all of downtown. At least I have a better idea of why no Franklin or 38th stop was added or upgraded service for 46th.
Maybe they're the same people who projected that the Kenilworth route would have higher ridership than the Uptown route on the Green Line Extension (I'm half-joking with that statement).

My best guess is they assumed the majority of riders are coming from the southern suburbs and going to downtown, and in theory virtually no one is going to ride only between downtown and Lake Street. With COVID and huge changes to commute patterns, the ridership projections for each station must have changed at least slightly.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » August 15th, 2021, 11:42 pm

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... deling.pdf

Keep in mind this is from 2015 and is projected ridership for 2040. South Bloomington TC and Heart of the City/Travelers Trail are projected to have around 1,000 daily riders each. Outside of downtown the Knox Avenue stations are projected to have the highest ridership.
How did they calculate those ridership numbers? I have a hard time believing Lake Street will be he lowest ridership stop on this route. Or that 76th, American and 98th will have more ridership than all of downtown. At least I have a better idea of why no Franklin or 38th stop was added or upgraded service for 46th.
Maybe they're the same people who projected that the Kenilworth route would have higher ridership than the Uptown route on the Green Line Extension (I'm half-joking with that statement).

My best guess is they assumed the majority of riders are coming from the southern suburbs and going to downtown, and in theory virtually no one is going to ride only between downtown and Lake Street. With COVID and huge changes to commute patterns, the ridership projections for each station must have changed at least slightly.
But Lake Street is a destination itself with one of the busiest buses running on it. American Blvd. by comparison has car dealerships, Bed Bath & Beyond and a Red Lobster. I will be flabbergasted if American Blvd. has 3X the ridership.

This makes me wonder what the projections for the Blue Line were. Maybe then I would understand why 28th, Bloomington Central, and American Blvd. are so close together.

Tcmetro
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Tcmetro » August 16th, 2021, 10:44 am

Lake Street is more likely to serve riders to/from the south suburbs. Taking the Orange Line from downtown and transferring to the 21 is less efficient than just taking one of the many north-south lines that cross Lake St.

Bakken2016
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Bakken2016 » August 16th, 2021, 10:47 am

Lake Street is more likely to serve riders to/from the south suburbs. Taking the Orange Line from downtown and transferring to the 21 is less efficient than just taking one of the many north-south lines that cross Lake St.
If I'm going to Lake and Nicollet, I'm choosing the Orange Line over the 18, it will be a much smoother and quicker ride.

Tcmetro
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Tcmetro » August 16th, 2021, 11:06 am

Sure, but Lake and Nicollet isn't really a major destination right now (given most of the shopping is closed) and a lot of the travel demand is coming from the Nicollet and Lake corridors not from downtown.

Would you take Orange Line + 21 to Lake & Lyndale or Lake & Chicago from downtown or just take the 4 or the 5?

Bakken2016
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Bakken2016 » August 16th, 2021, 11:19 am

So I did the math, bare in mind this is if everything is running on time and a good connection

An Orange Line + 21 to Lake and Lyndale would take about 10 mins, 5 mins on OL and 5 mins on 21. Currently a 4 takes 16 minutes from Nicollet and 7th St to Lake and Lyndale.

An Orange Line + 21 to Lake and Chicago would take about 14 mins, 5 mins on OL and 9 mins on 21. Currently a 5 takes 16 minutes from Nicollet and 8th Station.

I would probably just take a 5, but for the 4 I would base it on what is coming next.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 16th, 2021, 11:26 am

Sure, but Lake and Nicollet isn't really a major destination right now (given most of the shopping is closed) and a lot of the travel demand is coming from the Nicollet and Lake corridors not from downtown.

Would you take Orange Line + 21 to Lake & Lyndale or Lake & Chicago from downtown or just take the 4 or the 5?
I would probably just take the 4 or 5 since I don't know how long it'll take to transfer to the 21. When the B Line opens I'm sure more people will go for the first option, though if they're going somewhere near Lake & Chicago then it's very likely they'll just take the D Line.

My mother occasionally works at an office near Midtown Global Market, and while the Orange Line is an enticing option, having to transfer to the 21 and not knowing how long it will take to transfer and get from the Lake Street Station to Lake & Chicago is kind of a deal breaker.

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » August 16th, 2021, 11:50 am

The answer to whether you would take the orange or a more direct bus would also come down to if you would still need to transfer on the 21. Like for example if you were going to grand and lake. I'd prolly just take the orange line to the 21 instead of looking for the 18 or 4 and then walking 3 blocks or transferring to the 21. From downtown the orange line will be so fast compared to everything else including the D Line. In rush hour those buses can slow down to a crawl on city streets north of lake and into downtown and reliability suffers. With the frequency of the 21 and especially after the B Lines implementation id almost always take that transfer.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » August 16th, 2021, 1:25 pm

But Lake Street is a destination itself with one of the busiest buses running on it. American Blvd. by comparison has car dealerships, Bed Bath & Beyond and a Red Lobster. I will be flabbergasted if American Blvd. has 3X the ridership.
Well, people from the suburbs are going to be going to car dealerships, Bed Bath and Beyond, and Red Lobster more than anything on Lake Street. I don't know how many would be employed there, and even before the riots and crime explosion I didn't know anyone that hung out there, as opposed to Applebees or Red Lobster or wherever... Possibly to get to Allina, but won't the D line or one of the local lines make more sense for that?

alexschief
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby alexschief » August 16th, 2021, 3:07 pm

Given that these ridership projections are for 2040, it's a bit weird to be talking about transfers without mentioning the B Line?

The transfer to another METRO service is what I-35 and Lake Street Station will have over the other Orange Line stations.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 16th, 2021, 3:40 pm

Given that these ridership projections are for 2040, it's a bit weird to be talking about transfers without mentioning the B Line?

The transfer to another METRO service is what I-35 and Lake Street Station will have over the other Orange Line stations.
Besides downtown with the C, D, Blue, Green, etc.

Tcmetro
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Tcmetro » August 16th, 2021, 4:39 pm

But Lake Street is a destination itself with one of the busiest buses running on it. American Blvd. by comparison has car dealerships, Bed Bath & Beyond and a Red Lobster. I will be flabbergasted if American Blvd. has 3X the ridership.
Well, people from the suburbs are going to be going to car dealerships, Bed Bath and Beyond, and Red Lobster more than anything on Lake Street. I don't know how many would be employed there, and even before the riots and crime explosion I didn't know anyone that hung out there, as opposed to Applebees or Red Lobster or wherever... Possibly to get to Allina, but won't the D line or one of the local lines make more sense for that?
As a former 535 rider, I used the Lake & 35W stop quite a bit. There's a lot of people who live in South Minneapolis and work in the office and industrial parks in the suburbs or go to Normandale College. Also you have people who come from the south suburbs and transfer to the 21 and 27 to go to Midtown jobs.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 16th, 2021, 5:13 pm

I also used the Lake & 35W stop for getting to appointments just west of Uptown. I either took the 21 and then transferred to the 12 or 17, or if I had my bike I would get on the Midtown Greenway (which was kind of a pain but with the access improvements it'll be much easier) and biked the rest of the way.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » August 16th, 2021, 11:27 pm

But Lake Street is a destination itself with one of the busiest buses running on it. American Blvd. by comparison has car dealerships, Bed Bath & Beyond and a Red Lobster. I will be flabbergasted if American Blvd. has 3X the ridership.
Well, people from the suburbs are going to be going to car dealerships, Bed Bath and Beyond, and Red Lobster more than anything on Lake Street. I don't know how many would be employed there, and even before the riots and crime explosion I didn't know anyone that hung out there, as opposed to Applebees or Red Lobster or wherever... Possibly to get to Allina, but won't the D line or one of the local lines make more sense for that?
Sure, people need to get to car dealerships. But if we are talking of generating ridership I can't imagine something worse next to a transit stop (ok, mini storage is probably worse). I'd wager a McDonald's has more daily customers than all three of the dealerships next to the American Blvd. stop combined (and I'd think a McDonald's customer would be more likely to take transit).

As for anything of interest being on lake a quick look at google maps shows plenty of destinations. For example, a five minute walk from the American Blvd. northbound stop has the following businesses.
Lucky's 13 pub
Lupent Chevrolet
Luther Kia
Luther Infinity
Cornerstone Gifts (not sure if this one is real but Google thinks it is)
District Apartments (this must be new)
Red Lobster
Wendy's
Sonic Drive in
On Track Southtown Pro Shop
TC Pride Bowlers
AMF (two bowling alleys?)
Bed Bath & Beyond
Famous Footwear
WorldClass Travel Leaders
Guitar Center
T.J. Maxx (probably shouldn't count this one since 5 minutes only gets you to the back of the building)

While a five minute walk from the northbound lake stop yields the following.
McDonald's
Gorditas El Gordo
Umatul Islam Center
Global Health Link
Taco Bell
Tires For Less
CSL Plasma
Taqueria El Chilo
AutoZone Auto Parts
La bodega amigon
LA PARCELA PRODUCE
Western Union
Pineda Tacos Plus (this restaurant I recommend)
Taqueria la Hacienda
Cristo Rey Jesuit High School Twin Cities
Urban Ventures
Colin Powell Center
North Star Mini Storage (mini storage but at least it takes up less than half an acre as opposed to nearly 15 for the car dealers)
Plaza Mexico Shopping Mall
MAD DADS of Minneapolis
Cambridge Transportation
Baron Jones U.S.A
Chinese Express
Advanced Health Home Care
Anj Store bicycle shop
Hibachi Buffet
Nico Products
City Coin Laundry
United States Postal Service
Taqueria El Primo (this food truck is worth a visit)
White Castle
Banadir Pharmacy
Immigrant Resource Center Office
Dollar Tree
Cost Cutters
ATM (Wells Fargo Bank)
Walgreens
Minneapolis Police Department
Subway
A to Z Tobacco
Midtown Greenway
And over 50 single family homes, duplexes or apartment buildings.
Over twice the destinations.

This little section of Minneapolis is quite busy even with the closed and burnt out buildings. Once the former Kmart blocks are developed I don't see how this stop is anywhere near the least used.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » August 16th, 2021, 11:35 pm


Maybe they're the same people who projected that the Kenilworth route would have higher ridership than the Uptown route on the Green Line Extension (I'm half-joking with that statement).
I don't want to even think about the Kenilworth route. I just hope that person isn't still planning our next transit system.

Mdcastle
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » August 17th, 2021, 7:48 am

So the argument is a person from Burnsville is likely to take the Orange Line to get a burrito at the Lake Street Taco Bell?


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