Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
HuskyGrad
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby HuskyGrad » September 2nd, 2021, 11:25 am

Do car dealerships in general have a future? Online car sales are already up to 15% of the total, and only growing. In 10 years are we going to need 5 Honda dealerships in the metro, as we currently have? I'd guess the answer is no, though I am far from an expert.
Ford has said their planning to return to the build-to-order model where dealerships will primarily have demo units for potential buyers to test drive.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3718 ... g-changes/

twincitizen
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby twincitizen » September 2nd, 2021, 1:10 pm

As large pieces of property in the inner metro become more scarce and valuable, I kinda wonder why these large dealerships don't buy cheap land in Elko-Newmarket or East Bethel or wherever for inventory purposes, reducing the amount of paved asphalt they own along prime freeway corridors like 494 and 394. Like why does Richfield-Bloomington Honda need to have hundreds and hundreds of cars stuffed to the gills, at that exact location? Wouldn't it make more sense to own a secondary property just 25 miles away for inventory purposes? Especially for the bigger chains like Morries and Walser that own several local dealerships.

(This conversation will likely get moved to Suburbs: General or similar. We're way past the Orange Line at this point)

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » September 2nd, 2021, 2:50 pm

As large pieces of property in the inner metro become more scarce and valuable, I kinda wonder why these large dealerships don't buy cheap land in Elko-Newmarket or East Bethel or wherever for inventory purposes, reducing the amount of paved asphalt they own along prime freeway corridors like 494 and 394. Like why does Richfield-Bloomington Honda need to have hundreds and hundreds of cars stuffed to the gills, at that exact location? Wouldn't it make more sense to own a secondary property just 25 miles away for inventory purposes? Especially for the bigger chains like Morries and Walser that own several local dealerships.

(This conversation will likely get moved to Suburbs: General or similar. We're way past the Orange Line at this point)
The only downside I could see for the dealership besides transportation costs is the ability for people to purchase same day instead of giving them more time to think by having them either wait for the car to arrive from Elko new market or making them go out there for it.

It would also be nice to redevelop the land near Brooklyn Blvd and 694 for a future BRT route on 694/94. If those dealerships weren't there as well as White Bear Lake. It's interesting how often dealerships are in the path of transit projects.

mattaudio
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby mattaudio » September 2nd, 2021, 3:57 pm

Does anyone actually walk into a dealership and decide to purchase a car same day? That seems like a yikes move when purchasing an overpriced depreciating asset.

Back to Orange Line... Let's say a giant grocery store replaces the Herberger's/Toys'r'us site at Southtown... any chance the Orange Line can get routed straight through on a Knox Ave alignment rather than ridiculous under-construction routing circuiting three sides of Lucky 13's bar?

Mdcastle
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Mdcastle » September 2nd, 2021, 5:28 pm

Well, good idea or not it's common enough that car dealerships don't want to give buyers any additional excuses to not do it. If the buyer really wants to see a Blue CR-V with the sport package and black leather interior and the only one you have is out in Elko, they might decide to just leave rather than wait 45 minutes for it to be delivered from Elko to Richfield. Then they never show up again because they went to Hopkins Honda. Or stopped at Walser and got talked into a RAV-4 instead. Or if they haven't done that you still have to call them and make a better offer to get them back.

Sure, you save in real estate, but now you're paying employees to drive the cars back and forth, and if you're not careful you can put too many miles on car shuttling it back and forth so it turns into a "used car". And since car dealerships will sell cars to each other at cost (or very close to it), having remote inventory is kind of the worst of both worlds in that you still have to pay for holding it but it's not immediately accessible for showing. Granted my stepfather dealt in used cars and a few days is different than within an hour or so, but 99% of the time if he didn't have something the buyer wanted his spiel that "I can get you any car that you want" (By buying if from another dealer) would fall on deaf ears and they'd walk out and never be seen again.

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » September 2nd, 2021, 5:38 pm

Does anyone actually walk into a dealership and decide to purchase a car same day? That seems like a yikes move when purchasing an overpriced depreciating asset.

Back to Orange Line... Let's say a giant grocery store replaces the Herberger's/Toys'r'us site at Southtown... any chance the Orange Line can get routed straight through on a Knox Ave alignment rather than ridiculous under-construction routing circuiting three sides of Lucky 13's bar?
I feel like it could go on southtown thru the current transit center to 82nd if necessary. Temporarily closing the American Blvd station isn't bad when ones open right on the other side of the freeway as long as a sidewalk is kept open.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » September 2nd, 2021, 7:49 pm

Does anyone actually walk into a dealership and decide to purchase a car same day? That seems like a yikes move when purchasing an overpriced depreciating asset.

Back to Orange Line... Let's say a giant grocery store replaces the Herberger's/Toys'r'us site at Southtown... any chance the Orange Line can get routed straight through on a Knox Ave alignment rather than ridiculous under-construction routing circuiting three sides of Lucky 13's bar?
Because of the way the tunnel is being aligned it would be impossible to make the Knox Avenue routing straight without doing a lot of excavating.

As for car dealerships, there's two former dealership buildings next to the American & Knox Station that could possibly be redeveloped. One was used by Mitsubishi, which I believe was moved and colocated with the Honda dealership across the freeway, and the other was Fiat, which moved to St. Louis Park. Infiniti built a new building so they're not going anywhere.

mattaudio
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby mattaudio » September 2nd, 2021, 9:26 pm

ah good thing Kraus Anderson forced them to route around Lucky 13s and all..
signal-2021-09-02-204054_001.jpeg

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » September 2nd, 2021, 10:16 pm

Just needs one or two big apartment buildings replacing the surface parking along the west side of Knox and it's good enough.

twincitizen
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby twincitizen » September 3rd, 2021, 11:27 am

^ Looks like overhead transmission lines running through the site would get in the way of anything along Knox in the parking lot near Hyvee. That parking lot east of the liquor store certainly could be developed, but I don't see that as likely.

Wondering about traffic pattern changes, my guess is that this redevelopment will produce an increase in cars entering Southtown via the Knox Avenue entrance, vs. the one at American & Morgan. As currently configured, the Knox entrance goes largely unused (except by Lucky's 13 customers) since that is the back of the stores and you have to circle all the way around Herberger's. With this plan, I'd expect anyone coming from the east to use Knox rather than Morgan if they're going to Hyvee or any stores east of Morgan.

What I'm getting at is I hope this doesn't cause congestion where the transitway intersects with Knox. By "congestion" I don't mean long lines of backed up cars, but just a lot of slow moving/turning vehicles impacting bus turning movements there. Northbound buses look like they'll be able to make that right turn no problem (no stop, I assume), but southbound buses may be waiting a few seconds at times for the left turn to be clear.

Scott Wood
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Scott Wood » September 3rd, 2021, 6:32 pm

Does anyone actually walk into a dealership and decide to purchase a car same day? That seems like a yikes move when purchasing an overpriced depreciating asset.
I have, but that's because I don't go to the dealership until I'm ready to buy and am pretty sure I know what I want. And these days, I can check inventory online so I know which dealer to go to that has the car I'm looking for.

Plus, sometimes the need is urgent, such as when one's old car suddenly ceases to be drivable.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » September 3rd, 2021, 9:08 pm

I used to work at the Subaru/Acura dealership down the road and one time I overheard a family who had just gotten back from Europe (they literally just came from the airport) and were buying a car.

To make this post more on-topic with the Orange Line, if I still worked at that dealership and with the local bus changes they're planning with the launch of the Orange Line, I think it would be slightly easier getting to/from there without a car, but probably not by much. Of the 3 years I worked there I used public transit twice to get to/from there; with an irregular shift it just wasn't ideal. However if I didn't mind a slightly longer bike ride I could bike to South Bloomington TC, take the Orange Line for a quick hop to Knox & American, and then it's only a 5 minute bike ride to/from the dealership. The high frequency and longer service hours of the Orange Line would probably make that option a lot more worth it than a light frequency local bus even though it stops closer to the dealership.

Korh
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Korh » September 3rd, 2021, 9:51 pm

I mean I'm was only half joking about people using the SWLRT to buy a honda...

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » September 6th, 2021, 1:05 am

Are we assuming no one in those large apartment complexes at Penn-American will ride the bus?
Exactly. And all signs point to more of that coming to the area. At this point, I'd guess most of Southtown is on the table for redevelopment.
I'm assuming some will ride the bus but most likely not all of them. I don't think this area will reach the density of a Cedar Riverside any time soon (probably not even by 2040) so I have a hard time believing that if the LRT station at Cedar Riverside will have only slightly more riders than the two Knox Avenue stops.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » September 6th, 2021, 1:20 am



I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.
I hope I'm wrong but the number of people living, working or shopping per acre in this area probably isn't going to drive ridership. I count 5 car dealerships, 2 furniture stores and 3 auto body shops near the American stop. I wouldn't expect much ridership from these businesses. The stop at 76th is only slightly further than from BCS to 28th and I'd imagine anyone north of 494 will just go to that stop so probably not a lot of riders walking in from the north at American. That said I do see about a dozen restaurants, a grocery store and other retailers in the area so hopefully they will drive some ridership.

Speaking of BCS. The last 4 stops on the blue line can fit between Lake Street and Franklin station yet Lake street and Franklin have more riders than those 4 combined. Could you imagine if they added another station by the Delta offices? I think I heard that was planned at some point.
I’d say those car dealerships are ripe for redevelopment.. they are owned by people looking for the best ROI seems only logical they will sell and develop them moving their dealerships to a new location they can have a better location and bigger space. I think within 5 years they will be selling their last car.. 4months if they were a Chevy or Chystler lol
I doubt the auto dealerships will go anywhere soon. If I were selling cars I can't think of a better location to sell cars than the intersection of two of the busiest freeways in the state. Land Rover built a dealership just down the road on 494 and 77th so that should tell us the auto dealers want to be in the area.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby tedlanda2571 » September 6th, 2021, 7:44 am

Does anyone actually walk into a dealership and decide to purchase a car same day? That seems like a yikes move when purchasing an overpriced depreciating asset.
I have, but that's because I don't go to the dealership until I'm ready to buy and am pretty sure I know what I want. And these days, I can check inventory online so I know which dealer to go to that has the car I'm looking for.

Plus, sometimes the need is urgent, such as when one's old car suddenly ceases to be drivable.
That's the way I do it too. Do all the research up front, then only have to do the sales experience once (hopefully). If we can't reach a reasonable deal, or the car I've researched is significantly different than I thought, I walk, but otherwise I'm generally in the dealership one time. My partner on the other hand, man. When she wanted to buy a car it was a weekend long fiasco driving all over the metro area to test drive god knows how many cars. Too the point at hand, if we had been going to a half dozen dealerships, 5 in the 494 loop and one out in Elko, we probably woulda nixed Elko.

Tyler
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Tyler » October 11th, 2021, 11:19 am

Two (minor?) things that have been annoying me since completion

The ped bump-outs on the 35th and 36th street bridges are terrible. Large vehicle constantly drive over them. Can a school bus even make those turns? Sure seems like they can't.

Disappointed they went back to the old configuration at 62/100. The temporary re-striping was a dramatic improvement, as the current (and previous) 62 W to 100 N exit back up causes congestion through the area and also a dangerous situation as the highway speed traffic suddenly slows in the right lane. The temporary exit lane basically solved these issues, and was way safer.
Towns!

twincitizen
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby twincitizen » October 11th, 2021, 11:34 am

Orange Line begins service on Saturday, December 4!

Even better, a week from today (Monday 10/18), the Lake Street Station opens for service, serving Metro Transit routes 21, 27, 535, 553, and 578; and SouthWest Transit routes 600 and 695.

Bakken2016
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Bakken2016 » October 11th, 2021, 11:40 am

Orange Line begins service on Saturday, December 4!

Even better, a week from today (Monday 10/18), the Lake Street Station opens for service, serving Metro Transit routes 21, 27, 535, 553, and 578; and SouthWest Transit routes 600 and 695.
I will be out helping riders at the Lake Street Station on 10/18. Come out and see this gorgeous and very useful new station!

Korh
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Korh » October 11th, 2021, 8:35 pm

Orange Line begins service on Saturday, December 4!

Even better, a week from today (Monday 10/18), the Lake Street Station opens for service, serving Metro Transit routes 21, 27, 535, 553, and 578; and SouthWest Transit routes 600 and 695.
Is the MVTA still on their shit list over the redline or were their buses never coming back to lake in the first place.


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