Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[David Greene]

There's no way the Orange Line is opening in 2019

It's not just the Orange line. The Lake St. station is a major hub.

[froggie]

I did not realize that the Lake St. transit portion is not yet funded.

This was part of the discussion last month...according to the Henn Co engineer (who I happen to know), they're about $25 million short. And the primary reason why the freeway part is funded is because 2 of the bridges north of Lake fall under the Chapter 152 Bridge Program and are legislatively required to be under contract by 2018.

[Tcmetro]

The updated map shows the Nicollet Ave and Burnsville Pkwy stations.

[mattaudio]

Does that imply it will run along 35W for that segment instead of Nicollet Ave? Mistake.

[mister.shoes]

My guess: not necessarily. There's no Knox Ave jog between American and 76th, for example.

[MSPtoMKE]

Nope, it will travel in a one-way loop between the southern two stations. I don't think it was ever proposed to travel on Nicollet Ave, other than to access the station near Heart of the City. This presentation shows the routing, as well as a few other updates:

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... ntract.pdf

I believe they determined that going via the frontage road to Burnsville Pkwy to get back onto I-35W was the preferred routing anyway, so adding a "northbound" only stop (the bus is actually heading south at this point) there is an inexpensive bonus. The only downside I see is if there is a substantial layover at the Nicollet Ave station, accessing Burnsville Pkwy station for southbound riders is complicated.

[RailBaronYarr]

Since the Burnsville Parkway station has no parking spaces, it would also be a stop MT could easily shift east to Nicollet in the future if they decide to extend the line to the Burnsville Mall. The BP site does serve a few offices that are a bit of a hike from Nicollet, but I think the tradeoff would be worth it to serve the more walkable areas at Nicollet and BP/130th St (as separate stations, potentially). Though the language and routing seems to point to them just hopping back on 35W SB to get to the Kenrick Station in Lakeville rather than doing an urban route along Nicollet to the mall.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the TT site vs the MVTA ramp; objectively the case can be made for both (walkability vs bus connections), but long-term this feels like the slightly better path.

[mattaudio]

I think the better outcome would be the existing MVTA station, then a "Burnsville Parkway" station closer to Nicollet, serving HOC.

[twincitizen]

Project Update: http://metroorangeline.cmail20.com/t/Vi ... 32AAFB68BF

This spring, two important public participation processes will begin for the I-35W/Transit Access Project and the Orange Line's Lake Street Station: review of the environmental assessment (EA) and the Minneapolis municipal consent process.

The EA will document the project's environmental, transportation and community impacts and benefits. The EA, prepared by Hennepin County, will be published in early spring. Project partners will host an open house, public hearing and a 30-day comment period. In May, the City of Minneapolis will need to sign off on the Transit Access Project by providing municipal consent. The process will involve a public hearing at the City's Transportation and Public Works Committee followed by a City Council vote.

Although Hennepin County is not legally required to provide municipal consent, the County Board of Commissioners will approve the Transit Access Project design concurrently with Minneapolis municipal consent. Dates will be publicized as they are announced. Look for additional information in upcoming Orange Line newsletters.

[mattaudio]

I still have not seen any plan for operational changes at 46th Street Station with connections. That seems to be a big missing gap before municipal consent. Of course, I wish we could be demanding a 38th Street station as part of this as well.

[twincitizen]

Municipal consent is for the 35W-Lake project (incl. Lake Street Station). It doesn't really have anything to do with 46th Street or any minor operational changes that wouldn't be taking place for 4 more years...

But what changes do you have in mind? More frequent service on the 46, sure, but what else?

The 146 express was supposed to be eliminated when 46th St Station opened 5+ years ago (directing people to take the 46 to the station and transfer), but Southwest Mpls/East Edina flexed and the service was preserved. I would imagine Metro Transit will again (rightfully) try to kill the 146 when the Orange Line opens, and redirect those service hours to the 46.

[RailBaronYarr]

Also at the bottom:

Planning has begun for an extension of the METRO Orange Line south from Burnsville to the Kenrick Avenue Park & Ride in Lakeville. Station locations, routing, costs and implementation timeline will be refined as part of this upcoming work. The extension would connect the region to hundreds of jobs in southern Burnsville and Lakeville. More details can be found in the Orange Line Extension (OLX) report.

I think this is a pretty decent opportunity to make sure the extension of this line isn't a waste. Couple thoughts.. On the terminus, extending it to a park and ride against a freeway and close to basically a mobile home park and a low-density neighborhood is not.. great. I can see the pro-side argument: terminating here gives people who work downtown the all-day flexibility to take the OL home when express service isn't running. I tend to think the park/express service is serving a very distinct market and most daily riders requiring flexibility typically just drive in those days. I'd rather see a station at the Argonne commercial area. Yes, it's a fairly car-oriented place today, but still one with amenities for humans, jobs, and the potential for some sort of urban retrofitting, particularly with some multi-family housing. Additionally, if there's any place in Lakeville that could have a decent sized office building or two with some district parking, this would be it as no one is driving any further south.

I'm also of the opinion that the line should run down Nicollet from the HoC station, making a few stops (the hospital/Cobblestone Court area being a prime one) before the Burnsville Mall, abandoning the Bvill Pkwy station (as I detailed above). I could also be convinced of a station south of the mall at Crystal Lake Rd just before hopping on the freeway to serve the giant mess of apartments and townhomes near Buck Hill, housing many of Burnsville's lower-income families. Yes, these extra stops slow down the line and cost more, but I think they're worth it.

Anyway, thoughts/criticism welcome. I just don't want this to go completely unnoticed by us just because it's well south of the river.

[LakeCharles]

The 146 express was supposed to be eliminated when 46th St Station opened 5+ years ago (directing people to take the 46 to the station and transfer), but Southwest Mpls/East Edina flexed and the service was preserved. I would imagine Metro Transit will again (rightfully) try to kill the 146 when the Orange Line opens, and redirect those service hours to the 46.

Thanks for the background. Always seemed ridiculous to me that the 146 existed, or at least why it wouldn't just end at 46th Street Station to connect to the 535.

[MNdible]

Because forcing people to make an unnecessary transfer to puff up the numbers for the 46th Street station really doesn't serve to grow transit use?

Even if they're from Edina.

[RailBaronYarr]

Maybe people aren't motivated by screwing over Edinans, but rather by hoping that local bus service like the 46 got more reliable all-day frequencies thanks to an all-day bus with 10-15 minute headways running on 35W with a pretty low transfer penalty. I know you favor direct routes to downtown over this type of cross-town service in lower density areas of the city, but I really think a Grandview-50th/France-Bryant-Nicollet-Orange Line-Chicago-Blue Line-Highland Park string of nodes and transit connections that make sense for a better 46, and the ~230 people riding the 146 every day (only ~30 of which get on in Edina) will see a 46 come more often but have to wait 5-7 minutes for an Orange Line bus. (for reference, about 1,500 people ride the 46 every day)

[twincitizen]

Also at the bottom:

Planning has begun for an extension of the METRO Orange Line south from Burnsville to the Kenrick Avenue Park & Ride in Lakeville. Station locations, routing, costs and implementation timeline will be refined as part of this upcoming work. The extension would connect the region to hundreds of jobs in southern Burnsville and Lakeville. More details can be found in the Orange Line Extension (OLX) report.

I think this is a pretty decent opportunity to make sure the extension of this line isn't a waste. Couple thoughts.. On the terminus, extending it to a park and ride against a freeway and close to basically a mobile home park and a low-density neighborhood is not.. great. I can see the pro-side argument: terminating here gives people who work downtown the all-day flexibility to take the OL home when express service isn't running. I tend to think the park/express service is serving a very distinct market and most daily riders requiring flexibility typically just drive in those days. I'd rather see a station at the Argonne commercial area. Yes, it's a fairly car-oriented place today, but still one with amenities for humans, jobs, and the potential for some sort of urban retrofitting, particularly with some multi-family housing. Additionally, if there's any place in Lakeville that could have a decent sized office building or two with some district parking, this would be it as no one is driving any further south.

I'm also of the opinion that the line should run down Nicollet from the HoC station, making a few stops (the hospital/Cobblestone Court area being a prime one) before the Burnsville Mall, abandoning the Bvill Pkwy station (as I detailed above). I could also be convinced of a station south of the mall at Crystal Lake Rd just before hopping on the freeway to serve the giant mess of apartments and townhomes near Buck Hill, housing many of Burnsville's lower-income families. Yes, these extra stops slow down the line and cost more, but I think they're worth it.

Anyway, thoughts/criticism welcome. I just don't want this to go completely unnoticed by us just because it's well south of the river.

Oh, the irony of Dakota County wanting to study an extension of the Orange Line while they (well, MVTA) simultaneously butt heads with Metro Transit over MT encroaching in their service area (as MT will operate the Orange Line into the heart of MVTA territory).

Personally, I do not want to see the Orange Line extended any further south with all-day service for a long, long time. If they could figure out a minor extension down Nicollet to B'ville Center with a new terminus there, I'd be all for it. If MVTA wants to run more highly-subsidized local service to connect more of Dakota County with the all-day frequent Orange Line, great. But no extension of the Orange Line service south of B'ville Center, please. At least not before 2040.

EDIT: At second glace, I'd argue that (infrequent) local service running on city streets between Kenrick P&R and Heart of the City would actually be more useful than forcing the Orange Line down that way, given that it would have very limited stops in a highly unwalkable area. Instead, create a local route (from Kenrick P&R or Argonne area) via Kenrick Av, 162nd St, Buck Hill Rd, Burnhaven Dr (up and around the mall), CR-42, and Nicollet Av up to Heart of the City and Burnsville Transit Station. Probably couldn't run it more than every 30 or 60 minutes at first, but I really think that would be better than adding another Orange Line Station every mile or two along the freeway (which is no doubt what Dakota County thinks is the answer)

[LakeCharles]

Because forcing people to make an unnecessary transfer to puff up the numbers for the 46th Street station really doesn't serve to grow transit use?

Even if they're from Edina.

What?? The 146 passes directly by the 46th Street Station 6 times every morning, and the 535 leaves 1 minute later. The 146 gets on the freeway, and they drive next to each other all the way into downtown. All those people could just get off the 146, get on the 535 and get to downtown at the exact same time. And we could save a bus trip on the freeway, a driver, or make extra trips for the 46/146. That's not that hard of an ask for people, even if they are from Edina.

[xandrex]

^Can't speak to the 146 specifically, but a 1-minute transfer window is awfully narrow. That's one person digging for change to pay their fare and suddenly you've missed the bus (to say nothing of actually needing to get down to the highway platform in 60 seconds).

[MNdible]

The 146 passes directly by the 46th Street Station 6 times every morning, and the 535 leaves 1 minute later. The 146 gets on the freeway, and they drive next to each other all the way into downtown. All those people could just get off the 146, get on the 535 and get to downtown at the exact same time. And we could save a bus trip on the freeway, a driver, or make extra trips for the 46/146. That's not that hard of an ask for people, even if they are from Edina.

But if the 146 bus is full (and I don't know if it actually is or not, but let's for the moment assume that this is a popular service with frequency to match), what do you gain by forcing people to make a transfer? You're not saving a bus driver, or fuel, or anything. You're basically just trading a 146 bus for a 535 bus, and forcing people to make a transfer, and probably losing choice riders in the process.

[Tcmetro]

Transfer penalties are make-or-break for riders. If a trip takes 20 or 25 min, a good transfer of 5 min is 20-25% of the travel time. If the transfer is missed, and the rider has to wait 10 or 15 minutes for the next bus, then this means that well over 50% of the travel time could be spent waiting for another bus.

The reduction in bus frequencies is attributed to the loss of ridership in Chicago. Because the system is so focused on transferring, wait times need to be short to be competitive to car travel.