Riverview Corridor Streetcar

[nate]

Here's my question: is LRT warranted in this corridor? The Central Corridor had a regular bus line running every 10 minutes every day (more frequently during rush hours) and a limited stop bus route paralleling it. The 54 runs every 15 minutes Monday-Saturday and only every 20-30 minutes on Sunday's. Central Corridor needed the extra capacity light rail has. It doesn't seem like West 7th does.

I think on the merits of the corridor alone, no, it doesn't need LRT. Looking at what the corridor would do for our system, then I would say LRT is probably appropriate if the ridership is at all decent.

I drove down W 7th last week and I am coming around to the idea that this should run off-street for a few reasons:
1. It is already a marginal corridor as far as ridership is concerned, so this saves money in street reconstruction and utility relocation.
2. The density of the neighborhoods north of W 7th is not especially great. Routing it on W 7th doesn't really capture much additional ridership.
3. The best opportunity for TOD occurs south of W 7th.
4. The densest node on W 7th is at the Randolph/7th intersection. This node would still be served by an off-street alignment.
5. Because this line will be about connecting major centers of ridership, rather than a long stretch of consistent density, speed will be at a greater premium than it is on the green line.
6. Downtown St Paul isn't that large, and stations at the bluff would serve the downtown office, hotel, and event core decently well, if they had good vertical circulation.
7. Union Depot is very underutilized, and connecting Riverview directly to the concourse would improve its functionality.
8. It would be more easily extended to the East Side, as Rush corridor gains traction.

[froggie]

The 54 runs every 15 minutes Monday-Saturday and only every 20-30 minutes on Sunday's.

And, as I understand it, is a well-used bus. Which suggests that (if nothing else) frequencies could be increased.

1. It is already a marginal corridor as far as ridership is concerned, so this saves money in street reconstruction and utility relocation.

Money which, in all likelihood, would get tied up instead in fitting the corridor and any station pedestrian circulation in along the river bluff. I'd go so far as to argue that reconstructing West 7th with LRT would cost less than squeezing LRT in amongst the rail tracks along the bluff.

3. The best opportunity for TOD occurs south of W 7th.

The flaw in this logic is that there isn't much area south of West 7th and north of the river bluff. A routing along West 7th would still capture this plus serve areas north of West 7th.

[David Greene]

t sounded like they advocate for keeping the layout of 7th the same as it always has been. Complaints on parking and turn lanes make it pop out to me. Reading their website though, they seem like a good organization. So I'm still confused on why they wouldn't like the rail down 7th if it can be another economic driver to their road.

Erik Hare has a long track record of...complaining. He opposed Central Corridor because he said it should have been a streetcar. The results speak for themselves.

He is, however, well-connected.

[ProspectPete]

What do they want the line to be?

Like the Blue Line with it's low density/ high speed route the the airport?
Or the Green Line, an LRT serving dense areas of the city at lower speeds and with more stops?

Has that question been answered and embraced by all stakeholders?

It could resemble the Blue line if it goes along the bluff on the Ford spur, or on the other hand the Greenline if its somehow squeezed into downtown and down West 7th.

I do love the the art displays and the yoga classes in SPUD, but I do hope that in my lifetime it can be once again used as a transportation hub, and using the concourse and the Ford Spur would help achieve this.

[BigIdeasGuy]

The biggest argument for running LRT below the bluff seems to be it would make more use of Union Depot but I honestly think running running below the bluff would be disastrous for ridership in downtown. I can't imagine anyone going to the airport with luggage being willing to walk to the bluff then ride down an elevator/walk down 10 flights of steps to reach a LRT stop in the middle of nothing. After an event at the X the last thing I would want to do is walk across Kellogg then continue walking to some point along the bluff then be forced to wait either A. wait for an elevator with 1000's of other people or B. walk down wet steps. I understand the logic and desire to route it through Union Depots concourse but the ridership wouldn't be there.

[David Greene]

The biggest argument for running LRT below the bluff seems to be it would make more use of Union Depot

To me that's a distant secondary advantage. The primary reason to route it there is to ease through-routing to Rush Line.

But you make an excellent point and if through-routing via 4th isn't too difficult I'd be all for running it on existing LRT tracks as much as practicable.

[minneboom]

There are two upcoming meetings for the Riverview Corridor next week.

December 8: Downtown routing workshop
Tuesday, December 8
12:30 – 2:30 pm (overview presentation 1:00 – 1:15 pm)
Union Depot’s Veterans Gallery (2nd floor of Concourse)
214 E. 4th Street, Saint Paul (map)


December 9: Riverview Corridor update
Wednesday, December 9
4:00 – 6:00 pm (presentation 4:30 – 4:45 pm)
Sholom Home, 740 Kay Avenue, Saint Paul (map)

[BigIdeasGuy]

The biggest argument for running LRT below the bluff seems to be it would make more use of Union Depot

To me that's a distant secondary advantage. The primary reason to route it there is to ease through-routing to Rush Line.

But you make an excellent point and if through-routing via 4th isn't too difficult I'd be all for running it on existing LRT tracks as much as practicable.

I agree that through route to the Rush Line would be ideal but I would argue that serving downtown St. Paul as best as it can outweighs the benefits through-routing. If someone suggested during the Blue Line planning that it should skim downtown MPLS along with having a huge physical barrier between the the trip generators and stations it would have been dismissed immediately.

I'm not sure if there is enough space to make it happen but what makes sense to me would be going from 4th Street then jogging down to Prince St then having the Rush Line proceed from there.

[mulad]

Yeah, I think that's the most straightforward idea on the east end of downtown. I suspect the one eastbound lane of 4th would need to be removed/blocked in order for it to work, and the fancy entrance in front of the LRT maintenance building would probably need to be trimmed back, but I think the geometry should work.

I know others have mentioned the idea of running through the maintenance building itself, but that just strikes me as too strange to be accepted by anyone up the chain of approval.

The southernmost track through the building is currently used by the train wash.

[intercomnut]

The southernmost track through the building is currently used by the train wash.

I know it would be prohibitively expensive and add a lot of time, but riding through the train wash would be pretty fun the first couple times!

[mattaudio]

Did anyone go to the Riverview Corridor routing workshop last night? Or is anyone planning to go to the update meeting tonight?

[mulad]

The downtown routing workshop happened midday yesterday. I stopped by at about 1:30 (about an hour after they started, though I guess the main presentation was at 1:00). Unfortunately I missed a lot of the conversation. I'm also planning to head to the second event (today) momentarily, since it's not far from my apartment. That's supposed to be a more all-encompassing update on the project.

[twincitizen]

Can't wait for the mulad update from last night's meeting!

Did anyone else attend? For all the conversation here, I'd hope we could muster a better showing at these things.

[mattaudio]

For all the conversation here, I'd hope we could muster a better showing at these things.

4:30 PM in a distant corner of St. Paul is definitely not a low barrier for non-neighbors to participate.

[mulad]

I think most of what I got out of the meeting has basically been reported already. Potential routes along the I-35E corridor and Shepard Road are expected to be eliminated since they have poor connectivity to neighborhoods, particularly commercial zones, and have poor development potential. With those alignments cut out, highway BRT is not a mode worth considering. Northstar-style commuter rail (big train with low frequency of service) is also being dropped.

But along the remaining corridors, we still have the spectrum of options between regular bus through aBRT to full dedicated-lane BRT, plus streetcar, LRT, and DMU rail options.

I'm not sure if the entirety of Shepard Road is out, or if there are other small route segments that are being dropped too. I'm confused by the timing of these public meetings, since they happened immediately before the point where the official decision would be made (today, I guess). These changes had already been reported in late November following the technical advisory committee meeting, if I understand things correctly.

It would have been nice to have some maps with the discarded routes explicitly removed or 'X'd out.

I heard a few people complain about the noise of trains. Some mentioned that the trains from the old Ford plant were very loud, though I'm a little confused by that since they'd only run a couple times per day on the route. They may have been noticing the switching activity to break up and assemble the trains. At least one person claimed they could hear the bells and announcements from Blue Line LRT stations all the way across the river. I didn't manage to ask anyone how they felt about car noise on the various streets/highways in the area...

I asked about whether there was any specific legislation that would prevent building a new bridge somewhere along the Mississippi between the Ford Parkway Bridge and the MN-5 crossing (such as the Wild and Scenic River designation that held up the St. Croix Crossing project for so long), but they weren't aware of anything specific. Sounded like they hadn't fully investigated it yet, though.

I asked about the potential need for an extra tail track at the Mall of America station, but didn't get anything more definitive than "that's something we'll have to look at".

Since they're still mostly chipping away at the edges and there's a bit too much handwaving involved at this point, I ended up rambling a bit about Zip Rail/NAHSR and some other topics.

[VacantLuxuries]

Can someone explain why DMU vehicles have made it this far into the planning process in both the Riverview and the Rush lines?

[mattaudio]

Exactly, what's the point of DMUs on a corridor that will likely be mostly new track? DMUs would be a better fit for regional rail with multiple miles per station stop, operating on the national rail network.

[Tcmetro]

Supposedly, the costs of electrification are more than the sluggish performance and pollution of diesel trains. Camden, NJ, Austin, TX, Denton, TX, Portland, OR, Marin County, CA, Oceanside, CA, Toronto, ON, and Ottawa, ON have all constructed DMU systems in the past decade or so. A BART extension is being built with DMU trains, and supposedly the broke MBTA will add DMU service in the future.

I don't think DMU will pass the planning stages for either Riverview or Rush Line. None of the corridors I listed are heavily urbanized, and many of them are mainline rail lines, not isolated systems.

The Dec. 10th PAC meeting has a presentation attached which explains the initial evaluations: http://riverviewcorridor.com/wp-content ... -Draft.pdf

[Mdcastle]

I've gone to quite a few public meeting about highway projects, in a lot of cases being the person that traveled by far the longest, but these tend to be after office hours. Taking time off work and trying to get to downtown St. Paul in rush hour is not going to happen.

[MN Fats]

At least one person claimed they could hear the bells and announcements from Blue Line LRT stations all the way across the river.

I can corroborate this. I heard them on several occasions late at night when I lived near the St Kate's campus. (The bells at least, not the announcements.)