Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 456
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby tmart » February 4th, 2021, 1:49 pm

I agree that there are too many stations planned; it would be smart to consolidate the Davern and Homer stops into a single station somewhere like Rankin or Madison. I think especially given that other concessions have already been made that will slow things down (like less traffic separation/a mixed-traffic segment) the criticism is particularly salient.
I dunno, back when CCLRT was being planned I didn't want them to build the infill stations because it would slow down the line, but I was wrong - accessibility and mobility isn't the same as speed, and when the two come in conflict with each other, accessibility and mobility is the more important of the two most of the time. Two additional stops won't change the end-to-end time enough to make a useful mode unuseful, and so based on the experiences we've seen with the CCLRT - where the infill stations have had significantly better ridership than expected, and where their inclusion sent a clear signal about the line's commitment to mobility and accessibility for the communities most impacted by the line's construction - I'd lean toward keeping more stations.
I agree with the principle but I just don't see how these two stations--especially Maynard--improve mobility in a meaningful way. The current plan is basically to serve both ends of the Sibley Plaza parking lot! Neither stop has any walkshed on the northwest side of 7th, either, and the Homer stop is just the edge of an industrial park. Even from a pure mobility perspective I think Madison has a stronger argument than either of these two--it more directly serves the apartment buildings to its south, and it's accessible from the other side of the street (St. Paul Ave).

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6289
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby twincitizen » March 27th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Presentation for the 4/1 PAC meeting: https://www.ramseycounty.us/sites/defau ... mittee.pdf

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 467
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Bakken2016 » March 30th, 2021, 11:46 am

Just found out that I will be serving on the Riverview Corridor Station Area Planning Task Force!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 456
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby tmart » March 31st, 2021, 7:32 am

Just found out that I will be serving on the Riverview Corridor Station Area Planning Task Force!
Very exciting! I know you'll be a strong advocate for a good, LRT-style transit project.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4025
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby seanrichardryan » March 31st, 2021, 7:42 am

According to my twitter feed, a lot of really smart urban folks have been appointed to the advisory committee.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

r2b2
Block E
Posts: 3
Joined: March 23rd, 2020, 9:40 am

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby r2b2 » March 31st, 2021, 9:46 am

While I'm mainly curious about how the West 7th stretch is going to turn out, it's interesting to see possible changes to the MOA stop in the presentation slides (page 13 of the pdf), especially as they just renovated that station.

DanPatchToget
Foshay Tower
Posts: 964
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby DanPatchToget » March 31st, 2021, 10:20 am

While I'm mainly curious about how the West 7th stretch is going to turn out, it's interesting to see possible changes to the MOA stop in the presentation slides (page 13 of the pdf), especially as they just renovated that station.
While I was hoping for a station relocation on the north side of MoA, I still welcome this potential relocation so it wouldn't be in a dark parking ramp anymore. As long as they make sure accessibility to MoA is still good of course.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 4076
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Silophant » March 31st, 2021, 10:38 am

Slide 16 seems to show that a routing to the back of Union Depot is still under consideration, which, really? Aside from the "is it worth it to make people walk an extra 500' through the Depot to get to wherever they're actually going" issue, that adds a lot of extra movements to get to and from the OMF. Unless there's a separate OMF planned for this line, but I don't think there is?

DanPatchToget
Foshay Tower
Posts: 964
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby DanPatchToget » March 31st, 2021, 10:44 am

Yeah I don't see why that's being considered. It makes much more sense to just interline with the Green Line and serve the existing platforms at Central and Union Depot.

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 467
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Bakken2016 » March 31st, 2021, 10:47 am

Ramsey County has always wanted Union Depot to be a bigger destination, that’s probably why it’s on the table, I’m sure though it won’t go anywhere, just like the Gold Line ending there, it got routes through downtown.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1551
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby talindsay » March 31st, 2021, 11:09 am

Routing the light rail to the back never made sense and it continues not to make sense. The platforms in the back were designed for intercity heavy rail, while the streetcars and local transportation always served the front. I'm sure logic will prevail.

DanPatchToget
Foshay Tower
Posts: 964
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby DanPatchToget » March 31st, 2021, 11:38 am

I believe there's a single platform beside where buses layover that was built for light rail trains. There's even ballast, but no tracks installed. Not that it makes sense to route Riverview there, but I always wondered why they built that as part of the Union Depot renovations. Might've been because it was before they selected the alignment for the Central Corridor (now Green Line) so it was built just in case.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 456
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby tmart » March 31st, 2021, 1:09 pm

While I'm mainly curious about how the West 7th stretch is going to turn out, it's interesting to see possible changes to the MOA stop in the presentation slides (page 13 of the pdf), especially as they just renovated that station.
The Bloomington segment has always been far from ideal, and interlining a second line is as good a reason as we'll ever have to rethink it for better capacity and travel times.

I think the proposed new station location (I'm assuming that's 82nd and 24th?) is a great improvement over the current condition, where MOA riders (a.k.a., almost all of them south of the Airport) have to slowly wind around a big parking lot for, like, no reason.

IMO it's also a good chance to rethink the station spacing, which is bad. The 28th Ave ramp is less than a thousand feet from Bloomington Central Station; 28th Ave Station could easily be removed with no mobility impact. Same probably goes for American Blvd, which mostly serves parking lots and is only ~1000 feet from Bloomington Central. Removing ~half a mile of track, one signalized intersection, and two stops could cut maybe 5 minutes off from MOA to the Airport or Downtown, all without really affecting the walkshed at all--that would be a huge deal!

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6289
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby twincitizen » March 31st, 2021, 4:25 pm

I agree with everything said about station spacing in Bloomington. To repeat, ad nauseam, MOA & 28th Ave should've been a single station (a P&R ramp with a transit station on the ground floor), located just east of the mall and connected to the mall by skyway over 24th Ave. That's two stations in one, done. And no more expensive than what they built instead with MOA Station and 28th Ave P&R ramp. As for Bloomington Central & American Boulevard Stations, if they had simply shifted the Bloomington Central platforms about 400 feet east (closer to 34th Ave), that would overlap much of the walkshed of American Boulevard Station. Two stations instead of 4, without losing any current ridership and sacrificing very little future ridership (maybe lose a teeny bit of walkshed coverage up towards 494, but those parking lots don't seem to be going anywhere). Plus by routing along 82nd Street, you cut off at least a minute of rounding that slow curve, and another minute off the super slow entry into the mall itself. So cutting two stops (~45 seconds each) and 2 minutes of super slow travel would save a minimum of 3.5 minutes per trip, each direction. With trains running 10 minute headways most of the day, over the course of a year, that actually adds up to a ton of in-service hours for Metro Transit.

All that said and re-said, I somewhat doubt that the "new" lines you see on these Riverview plans are anything more than redundancies, in the event that running Riverview trains into MOA station would create too many operational headaches for the Blue line and Riverview Line. With Riverview overlapping Blue on one end, and Green on the other, and both Blue & Green trains having to coordinate their schedules in order to avoid bunching up in the downtown Mpls 5th Street tracks, it might just be easier operationally for Riverview to stop across the street from the mall, in the event Metro Transit says "no" to having Riverview trains enter MOA station and messing up Blue Line operations.

I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see how they would be considering a replacement/relocation of the MOA LRT platforms when the entire station was just rebuilt. Granted, Riverview is still likely a decade+ from operation, so the mall station will have aged some by then and Metro Transit will be ready to have that conversation. Keep in mind that it's not just LRT riders going to and from the mall; MOA is also the busiest transfer station in the entire Metro Transit system. So if in 2030, train platforms are going to be across 24th Ave from the mall, that means also building a whole new bus station, as well as safe/efficient pedestrian travel into the mall (see 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence above).

Mdcastle
Foshay Tower
Posts: 900
Joined: March 23rd, 2013, 8:28 am
Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Mdcastle » April 1st, 2021, 9:07 am

I agree with this as far as it should have been two stations, except I will note that the city has been trying to get rid of the surface airport parking lots for years. They want some more intense development with structured parking for both the airport parking and whatever the development is. The parking lots are operating under conditional use permits with the condition that the owners start developing their properties, but the owners keep coming back with sob stories about how they're having issues with development and requesting extensions on the surface lots.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6289
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby twincitizen » May 4th, 2021, 3:32 pm

The Villager has a summary of the 4/1 PAC meeting: https://myvillager.com/2021/04/14/pac-o ... treetcars/ The PAC will meet again in mid-July. The Station Area Planning Taskforce has its first meeting tonight.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 456
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby tmart » May 4th, 2021, 11:33 pm

Interesting article! I recognize a lot of familiar names on the two committees :)
Getting streetcars across the river would require using the existing Highway 5 bridge or building a new one. The Minnesota Department of Transportation (MnDOT) has raised concerns about the impact a mass transit route could have on the existing bridge.
Interesting; I'd be curious to hear what exactly their concerns are. My assumption is that, if the streetcar gets dedicated lanes on any major chunk of West 7th, that's going to be the limiting factor for the whole road east of 62. If that's true then I'd think cutting the bridge down to one car lane each way wouldn't actually have that big of an additional traffic impact. The only other thought I had is that they'd maybe like to maintain two lanes all the way to Shepard, and then only have lane reductions after that point. (Or maybe they're the ones pushing to use the CP spur because they think it will let them avoid any reduction in cars on West 7th?)

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1523
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Tcmetro » May 5th, 2021, 7:28 am

The City of St Paul has previously studied improving the connection between Hwy 5 and Shepard Rd. That would be very helpful to help reduce traffic on W 7th St.

Trademark
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 143
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby Trademark » May 5th, 2021, 8:11 am

The City of St Paul has previously studied improving the connection between Hwy 5 and Shepard Rd. That would be very helpful to help reduce traffic on W 7th St.
Turning Shepard Rd into Hwy 5 and having the city take over 7th street is also something they should consider. It would be nice if they could make the 35E-Shepard interchange into a full access one but I think the landscape there would be too difficult.

Shepard is one of my favorite roads to drive. And could definitely take a lot more thru traffic.

atburns
Block E
Posts: 16
Joined: May 26th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Postby atburns » May 5th, 2021, 8:27 am

Absolutely not. Haven't we learned our lesson about routing highways along the riverfront? That would be a disaster. Shepard is too wide as is.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests