Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
talindsay
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby talindsay » October 13th, 2014, 4:44 pm

Okay, sketched it out on Google My Maps, and it looks like a Fort Road route is just over seven miles of new track while a Ford Parkway - Ford Spur route is a little over eight. The Ford idea would make the total airport trip about two miles longer than the Fort Road route, but would probably be cheaper to build (since it wouldn't involve all the bridge and elevation work), and would definitely reach more neighborhoods. To compare my ideas:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... GKZ_ru_9rY

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mister.shoes
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mister.shoes » October 13th, 2014, 6:14 pm

That intersection with the Blue Line at 46th/Hiawatha looks awfully hairy. We should probably tunnel under Minnehaha Falls Park and connect farther south.

/s
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talindsay
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby talindsay » October 13th, 2014, 9:21 pm

That intersection with the Blue Line at 46th/Hiawatha looks awfully hairy. We should probably tunnel under Minnehaha Falls Park and connect farther south.

/s
Man, I know - it's going to be a mess. But i can't imagine this line having high enough ridership to justify any grade separation there, as much as it needs it. And I can't really come up with a better way to do the junction. At first i was thinking of somehow using the land bridge to accomplish a flyover but I'm sure that wouldn't fly politically. And anything at grade south of 46th would have a huge impact on 55. Maybe there is money for a new short tunnel segment but i doubt it.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mister.shoes » October 13th, 2014, 10:00 pm

Honest reply: I haven't a clue how it would work either. That land bridge is definitely off-limits and I can't see any rail being tolerated inside the park limits itself, though it sure would be neat to see trains running past (and stopping at a new platform by) the historic depot. I can't see a good place to cross Hiawatha without royally pissing off MNDot, who'd love nothing less than a nice full freeway.

/sarcastic reply: More park tunnels! Go under the creek while we're at it!
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nate
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby nate » October 14th, 2014, 7:14 am

In my seat of the pants internet opinion, it seems like a Ford site routing would be a much more valuable regional connection versus heading over the Highway 5 bridge.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby min-chi-cbus » October 14th, 2014, 7:45 am

For me it's connect to the MOA or don't do it at all.

nate
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby nate » October 14th, 2014, 7:50 am

I think that the assumption is it connects with the MOA no matter which route it takes over the river. The question is if it connects to the Blue Line somewhere around Fort Snelling station, or at 46th or 50th Station.

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby Silophant » October 14th, 2014, 8:21 am

Yeah, they're for sure using the existing airport stations, and once they've gone that far, there's no reason not to continue to MOA.
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby FISHMANPET » October 14th, 2014, 8:24 am

Would you force a transfer at 46th, or interline down to the Mall? With all those park and rides you have to think you'd gain some ridership in the rush hours going into Downtown St Paul. Maybe interline during peak periods and force a transfer at off peak?

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mattaudio » October 14th, 2014, 8:38 am

I think in the hypothetical scenario of a crossing at 46th/Ford Pkwy, which is definitely not likely, some people including myself and RailBaronYarr have proposed a hypothetical interline from 46th to Lake Street, then continuing west to West Lake. This would provide a service with a single seat ride from Uptown and much of South Mpls to Downtown St. Paul.

But the first order of business should be improving service between the airport and Downtown St. Paul. Why? Because Mayo Clinic is pressing for a MSP Airport terminus for ZipRail, rather than SPUD (or Mpls for that matter), meaning that we'd possibly see the building of a third central passenger rail system in our metro. This would further diffuse future service, resulting in bad rail to rail transfers and bad network synergy.

The revival of Riverview LRT may very well be a hedge to try and protect the investment in SPUD.

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby MNdible » October 14th, 2014, 8:43 am

I think forcing a transfer at 46th wouldn't be the end of the world (because I suspect Riverview would carry more people wanting to get into downtown Minneapolis than to MSP/MOA).

That said, it does appear that a flyover bridge to interlined track heading southbound could be done fairly painlessly -- the trick will be to accommodate the transfer at 46th Street.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby FISHMANPET » October 14th, 2014, 8:52 am

Running from Midtown to St Paul single seat or at least 2 seat (Midtown to Lake, Blue to 46th, Riverview to St Paul would be a 3 seat ride, and I think thats too much for our small metro), but I have a hunch that maybe we're over-represented in the Live in Uptown, work in St Paul demographic :)

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby froggie » October 14th, 2014, 8:59 am

I've seen OFFICIAL fetish maps that show a direct connection of the bridge to Shepard Road by way of the vacant Unisys/USBank Riverview site.
I'd like to see these maps sometime.
MnDOT's traffic mapping application currently lists the bridge at 56,000 AADT, which would be very high for a 2-lane road -- at the edge of being possible in a "super-two" configuration because of the on/off ramps, I suppose, but still pretty tricky.
56K is well over the capacity of a 2-lane, even a Super-2 (which typically maxes out in the low 30s). The relatively short distance between the ramps at Shepard and at 55 plus the high volumes on both sets of ramps would further dilute the capacity.

Another way to look at the Fort Rd Bridge as a 2-lane would be to envision Hwy 12 around Long Lake with over double the traffic and with Crosstown-style ramp spacing. I just don't see it as an option.


As for using the Ford Bridge, I don't really see a viable way to cross Hiawatha there either.

nate
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby nate » October 14th, 2014, 9:14 am

There's an existing freight rail line that runs parallel to Hiawatha on the east side of the street, behind the Walgreens and those other businesses. The line could run north on that for a block, and flyover Hiawatha to the north of 45th street, and hit 46th street station on its way to the Airport and MOA. A little out of the way, but it manages to hit 46th street

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby acs » October 14th, 2014, 9:24 am

Forget about trying to do transfers and connections at the 46th street station, how about just turning south at 55 and having 50th st be the first shared station. Yes, it comes tantalizingly close to the 46th street station but again when the goal is to interline with the blue line from MOA to the Airport then its a necessary sacrifice.
But the first order of business should be improving service between the airport and Downtown St. Paul. Why? Because Mayo Clinic is pressing for a MSP Airport terminus for ZipRail, rather than SPUD (or Mpls for that matter), meaning that we'd possibly see the building of a third central passenger rail system in our metro. This would further diffuse future service, resulting in bad rail to rail transfers and bad network synergy.

The revival of Riverview LRT may very well be a hedge to try and protect the investment in SPUD.
This x100. While I would love SPUD to be the one and only hub for all intercity services, with riverview LRT, making the airport be another wouldn't be the end of the world. Lots of airports in the US and around the world serve as rail stations. If we're going to have a "transit triangle" then making each point have a long-distance station will not be completely off the wall.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mister.shoes » October 14th, 2014, 9:34 am

Nate's thinking of the same tracks I was when I referenced the old depot in Minnehaha Park. The line could turn south onto that ROW at 46th Street, add a stop behind the DQ on that empty lot under the power lines, and then continue on past/through the park. If an at-grade crossing of Hiawatha is acceptable (doubtful), it could be done just north of 50th Street so Riverview could share that station with the Blue line. If a grade-separated crossing of Hiawatha is required (likely), I'd wager that it would have to happen as far south as Minnehaha Ave, given the large number of properties that require access to the residential incarnation of Hiawatha Ave on the west side of the Blue line and the extreme lack of space thereabouts.

Edit: Ninja'd by acs, but I'm leaving my comments intact :)
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mattaudio
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mattaudio » October 14th, 2014, 9:44 am

I just can't imagine a scenario where a connection in this area will happen. The only real advantage to a route here is to connect Highland Park, an area that's already doing fine development-wise and is already served by many buses. It's also in line for a big upgrade: A-Line BRT connecting Highland Village to 46th St. Station and Midway in the next year. It has the 134 for a one-seat ride to Mpls during rush hour. If there's anything Highland Village could use for transit service improvement, it would be a faster one-seat ride to/from Downtown St. Paul. The 70 and 74 can be a little slow.

But if there's a rail connection across the river, I can't imagine a scenario where it isn't on a modified Fort Road bridge, either above or below the road deck. It would just be too easy at that point to wye into the Blue Line near the federal building, allowing for continuation of service to the Airport and MOA. Or an easy continuation of service (as a secondary service) up to Lake Street then west across Midtown.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mister.shoes » October 14th, 2014, 9:44 am

Let's think "system" for a minute: If at-grade crossings of Hiawatha are acceptable (and really, they should be), then Riverview could/should (IMO) interline with Blue just north of 50th Street as I outlined above. Midtown would interline with Blue from Lake Street to 46th Street, where it would turn east onto 46th (the angle of the intersection with Hiawatha seems to make this doable) and interline with Riverview. We'd get a wye (with a really long southern leg) for maximum flexibility and allow riders to make all sorts of trips with a maximum of one transfer.

It would also effectively halve the headways on the Riverview line: every other SB/WB train goes to to Airport/Midtown. The Blue line would see the same frequency increase at the south end: every other NB/EB train goes to DT MPLS/DT StP. This seems to me to be a hugely efficient use of a whole lot of hypothetical trackage.
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mister.shoes
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mister.shoes » October 14th, 2014, 9:52 am

matt's right (duh), that Riverview will likely cross the river on Fort Road. Thinking about this northerly routing is a fun exercise, though. The "really big wye" could end up being Blue/Riverview/Midtown where 46th/Ft. Snelling/West 7th are the junctions. That would make for some really impressive transit service for SW StP and probably do a world of good for the entire stretch of West 7th between DT and the river.
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby FISHMANPET » October 14th, 2014, 9:58 am

I like taking a system approach. Right now we associate a service with a line, but that doesn't have to be the case. As we build more tracks and more intersections we can add more services without adding a lot of track.

But I can't see crossing Hiawatha at grade being acceptable, considering how much the blue line snarls up traffic as it is. Even it's the "better" idea for <insert societal goal here>, there's no way you could sell it to the general public.


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