Tolling Urban Freeways

[holmstar]

494 capacity expansion in Plymouth begins today.

This should really be a MnPASS lane. It's ridiculous how people want general purpose lanes. I'd rather have a lane that allows me to pay for performance, if we're going to be adding pavement. Just imagine if every freeway in the metro had a lane converted to MnPASS. I'd gladly pay to move fast whenever I have the misfortune of being on an urban freeway.

You forgot the sarcasm tags.

Or if you're being serious, here's a handy translation:

Me. Screw you all. Me. Just imagine me EVERYWHERE!. Me.

[mattaudio]

I am serious, we should have more tolled urban freeway lanes and fewer "free" freeway lanes. If I want to pay to go somewhere faster, that's good right? If I don't want to, maybe I'll think twice about my trip.

[holmstar]

I am serious, we should have more tolled urban freeway lanes and fewer "free" freeway lanes. If I want to pay to go somewhere faster, that's good right? If I don't want to, maybe I'll think twice about my trip.

Hey, why not just make all freeway lanes toll lanes. I mean, if you don't want to meander through side streets, you can pay to go faster. All the better for those of us that have the cash to pay the toll. Oh, what's that? your taxes helped build the freeway? That's a bummer. Guess you should've gotten a better job so that you could've used it.

[mattaudio]

I do support making all urban freeway lanes into toll lanes.

[holmstar]

I do support making all urban freeway lanes into toll lanes.

So you support what amounts to a strongly regressive tax? I know, I know. You want to encourage people to live closer to work, use public transit, etc. But that's a lot easier said than done for most people, especially those on the low end of the income spectrum. They would also be hurt the hardest by tolls.

[mattaudio]

It seems strange that we all talk about going up to our up north family cabins for a weekend but we couldn't afford a $5 "surge price" toll for 494/94 on a Friday afternoon.

[mattaudio]

So you support what amounts to a strongly regressive tax?

The lowest socioeconomic groups are already burdened by strongly regressive taxes: Congestion, paying sales/income taxes towards expensive freeways that are still congested (the gas tax doesn't come close), and an auto-dependency tax. We're lying to ourselves if we think our current way of life and land use is somehow good for lower income folks.

[EOst]

I do support making all urban freeway lanes into toll lanes.

So the rich should be able to drive as fast as they want, and the poor who can't afford it should sit in traffic. Brilliant.

[holmstar]

Extra Lanes do not solve Holiday Traffic Congestion Problems. Our interstates should not be designed and our tax money should not be spent to make a small percentage of people's ride to their cabin 30 minutes faster 15 summer friday afternoons a year. It should be built to accommodate the people and traffic patterns it deals with on a daily basis. (Disclaimer: I grew up in (and my parents still live in) Maple Grove right in the middle of this holiday weekend clusterFword, and was an innocent victim of its delay many times, AND my family has a cabin just south of Alexandria, so don't think I'm an unaffected bystander running my mouth, I still don't think a ton of freeway expansion is the answer)

I'm not advocating unrestricted freeway growth. I'm calling out pass/toll lanes as the two class system that it is. If a new lane is being added, it can either benefit everyone equally (general purpose lane), or benefit some more than others (pass/toll lane). Why shouldn't you get to pay to go faster? Because for you to go faster, everyone else is forced to go a bit slower (than they would be if it was a general purpose lane).

[holmstar]

We're lying to ourselves if we think our current way of life and land use is somehow good for lower income folks.

So we might as well make it worse, right?

[ECtransplant]

If we're going to argue from the absurd, I think the point is more that no one should drive ever. But if they're going to, they should have to pay for it

[Nathan]

I do support making all urban freeway lanes into toll lanes.

So the rich should be able to drive as fast as they want, and the poor who can't afford it should sit in traffic. Brilliant.

many places have all toll interstates it's not some radical idea. the us constitution does not say free interstates are a right. it's a privilege and we're spoiled.

[holmstar]

many places have all toll interstates it's not some radical idea. the us constitution does not say free interstates are a right. it's a privilege and we're spoiled.

True, but our metro was built on free to use freeways. Changing that would cause financial pain for a lot of people. Maybe the end state would be better land use, but the transition would be hard.

[EOst]

many places have all toll interstates it's not some radical idea. the us constitution does not say free interstates are a right. it's a privilege and we're spoiled.

While we're at it, I'd like to put a fee on walking on whatever street you live on. $10 a step should be good for funding future transit projects, and hey, why should we subsidize your walking with free sidewalks? Sidewalks are a privilege.

[talindsay]

Toll lanes reward the rich with higher mobility.

[David Greene]

I do support making all urban freeway lanes into toll lanes.

So the rich should be able to drive as fast as they want, and the poor who can't afford it should sit in traffic. Brilliant.

Or carpool and use the toll lanes for free.

What Matt is suggesting is not at all out of the ordinary in many places in the US. And those places generally don't have carpool exemptions. I used to be against tolling for the reasons you've outlined but if the poor are driving they're already paying a huge tax in terms of the cost of gas and maintenance on the vehicle. The tolling would be a small part of the cost. This is one of the reasons I think SWLRT is a great opportunity for the less well-off. It's a true alternative to driving to a bunch of jobs.

Putting some of that toll money into transit could be done to offset the regressivity somewhat. I'm reminded of people who are against the transit sales tax because "it's regressive." What's more regressive, a 1 cent sales tax that goes to transit or a 25 cent fare increase because we don't have enough funding?

[nordeast homer]

The problem is that any toll will go to more bureaucracy not anything substantial for the roads. Just drive any of the toll roads in Chicago, you'd be better off driving on dirt roads.
Tolls are not the answer.

[David Greene]

While we're at it, I'd like to put a fee on walking on whatever street you live on. $10 a step should be good for funding future transit projects, and hey, why should we subsidize your walking with free sidewalks? Sidewalks are a privilege.

I don't know about you, but I pay assessments for my sidewalk.

[David Greene]

The problem is that any toll will go to more bureaucracy not anything substantial for the roads. Just drive any of the toll roads in Chicago, you'd be better off driving on dirt roads.

"Because bureaucracy" is not an argument.

What's wrong with the Chicago tollways? I use them all the time and they generally get me where I need to go quickly. They're certainly not falling apart by any means.

[ECtransplant]

many places have all toll interstates it's not some radical idea. the us constitution does not say free interstates are a right. it's a privilege and we're spoiled.

While we're at it, I'd like to put a fee on walking on whatever street you live on. $10 a step should be good for funding future transit projects, and hey, why should we subsidize your walking with free sidewalks? Sidewalks are a privilege.

I wasn't aware walking was bad for the environment and people's health while supported by wars on the other side of the world