Park and Portland Avenues

[mplser]

60% of the time, it works every time.

it's those real bits of panther

[Dottedeighth]

Hey all so this is my first post ever! I have been a lurker on here and minnescraper for years. I thought I'd give my two cents because I want become active on this forum and I live right off park and grew up around this area. I don't have any offical background in transportation or planning just what I observe from the place I have lived most of my life.Here are just thoughts about these streets to me.

-Park & Portland are critical arteries for south mpls, both car and bike.
This is how people that live in South Mpls. get around South Mpls efficiently. I use these streets every day either by bike, car, or walking. They are very important to the way myself and others get around the south side.

One way is important to get traffic flowing efficiently, Have you ever tried getting from downtown to 38th st. on Chicago vs Portland? It can take double the amount if time by taking chi av. I get around faster on these streets when I need to go farther distances than just a mile or two.

I feel much safer as a biker on these one ways with a 35mph speed limit than I do on two way chicago av with its 30mph and bump outs. Maybe im crazy or its just that I've been around here too long. Granted there are safety issues with turns on one ways but I have had far less close calls on park and port that see almost double the traffic count as chicago.

Park & Portland need to be pedestrian friendly.
In my dream world I would love to see park & port full of walking people, small two way street, bikes, wide winding sidewalks, greenery, laughter, puppies, street balloon venders... but I don't see it happening without mixed use.

Currently everything so single use, The area has some housing, 9-5 school, non profits, the swede institutes new restaurant is cool. But there is not much for people to walk to around here. There are big parking lots, all the transportation links are on chicago, its "drive over" country. To be the pedestrian/biking/green environment I think we all want there needs more mixed use. I also really think mixed use us far more important than a pretty street. I would rather see time and energy put into that, real urban fabric. What good is a pretty ped friendly street if its still drive over country and there is not much to walk to?

Park & Port need to be bike friendly
This is totally doable in it's current config. I bike on them every day thinking man just buffer this lane like they've done on 1st av. The roads are plenty wide this is a no brainer.

Anyway just observations, I would advocate for:
a. Stays one way for the time being.
- its important in its current config for my neighbors and I to get around south side efficiently and safely.
b. Lights get re-timed
- Reduces travel time
- Reduces carbon footprint
- Reduces driver frustration and tendency to run lights.
c. Buffer the bike lane

Thanks for letting me do my first post! yay!

[PhilmerPhil]

The plans are already in place. They were presented at the meeting on Thursday. For the most part, both streets will be reduced to two lanes, bike lanes will recieve painted buffers and be moved to the right side for most of the corridor, lights will be retimed and speed limits will be reduced to 30.

Despite the poor reporting in the Star Tribune that said there were mixed feelings toward the project, it seemed like 95% of the people at the meeting were in support of the changes, and most of the supporters didn't think the county was doing enough. Many argued for reduction to 2 lanes and right side bike lanes for the ENTIRE corridor.

The changes will begin this month and be finished in early October.

[mulad]

Here's an alternate telling of the event: http://mplsbike.org/blog/?p=2521

[MNdible]

The bicycle community has become a well-organized lobbying force that can (and do) mob public meetings like these. They're a vocal minority that has gotten very good at getting their way, because they show up and are passionate.

Good for them, but it's not a very good representation of what most people would like to see.

[the other scott]

Good for them, but it's not a very good representation of what most people would like to see.

Just curious. What is it most people would like to see?

[woofner]

Good for them, but it's not a very good representation of what most people would like to see.

Wow, you're very lucky that you were the one that "most people" chose to tell their opinion to.

Actually there were lots of people at the meeting who claimed to live on Park and Portland, and almost all were supportive of the reduction in lanes, even if they didn't care about bikes. The people who lived off Park and Portland were the ones who weren't supportive, because they feared an increase in motorists cutting through their streets to avoid congestion. The bureaucrats said they would be monitoring that type of behavior, but claimed it didn't tend to be an issue in other lane-reduction projects they'd been a part of. I'm not sure I entirely believe them, but I don't think cut-throughs will be a big problem here because (a) most of the streets around Park and Portland are very narrow, and (b) Park and Portland were way overcapacity anyway. The only points at which they came anywhere near the amount of traffic it takes to fill three lanes, the new design retains three lanes.

[MNdible]

Good for them, but it's not a very good representation of what most people would like to see.

Just curious. What is it most people would like to see?

Well, if online comments are any indication, most people want to see the status quo. I'm not suggesting that the status quo is the right answer, but I am suggesting that most people feel that way.

Wow, you're very lucky that you were the one that "most people" chose to tell their opinion to.

Do you really think that the people who showed up at that meeting fairly represent the broader public opinion?

[mplsjaromir]

Good for them, but it's not a very good representation of what most people would like to see.

Just curious. What is it most people would like to see?

Well, if online comments are any indication, most people want to see the status quo. I'm not suggesting that the status quo is the right answer, but I am suggesting that most people feel that way.


Are you suggesting that the Strib comment section is where the government should look toward for guidance?

[MNdible]

Are you suggesting that the Strib comment section is where the government should look toward for guidance?

Nope. But the Strib commenters are a self-selecting group that dominate a discussion with a particular point of view, so it wouldn't be much more ridiculous than looking to a public meeting stacked with bicycle advocates.

[woofner]

Do you really think that the people who showed up at that meeting fairly represent the broader public opinion?

Were you at the meeting? I haven't finished compiling a SQL server database of the sign in sheets yet, but there appeared to be quite a few people who actually live on the affected portion of Park & Portland there, and most of those people seemed to have little or no connection to MBC. Again, my database is not yet complete, but most of these residents seemed to support the lane reduction, even if they didn't like the benefit to those damn scofflaw cyclists. Maybe that's not what you mean by the "broader public," and I think it's valid to ask whether people who show up to meetings represent the general public, but at the same time the decisions have to be made. Would you rather they have a referendum before approving any change in layout?

As we are seeing in this election season, if you ask someone whether they'd rather a government project or policy benefit them personally or their neighbor, most people are going to choose themselves. That's how we end up with all those people whose top two priorities are deficit reduction and lower taxes. Similarly, if you ask someone whether they want an extra lane to drive on, most people are going to say yes. But if you ask them how many lives they're willing to sacrifice for that lane, you will probably get less support. If you ask them if they'd rather have an extra lane or if they'd rather have high-quality transportation options so that they have less traffic in general to deal with, I think you're probably going to get mixed answers from those "most people."

[the other scott]

Well, if online comments are any indication, most people want to see the status quo. I'm not suggesting that the status quo is the right answer, but I am suggesting that most people feel that way.

Point taken. Perhaps the reason people feel that way is 1) Something is being taken away 2) People don't realize there is excess capacity on these streets

I guess I trust the engineer's analysis that this is doable without causing huge disruptions. Those who are dead set against the changes probably are just reacting without thinking things through. I have friends who live on Oakland who are nervous about the change though, thinking it will drive traffic to their street. I think those concerns are valid, but I'm sure traffic controls can be put in place to take care of that if it becomes a big problem.

I'll admit it, I have a dog in this hunt. Actually two. I live on Park and I bike to work year round.

if you ask someone whether they'd rather a government project or policy benefit them personally or their neighbor, most people are going to choose themselves.

That's me! (on this issue at least)

*edit for grammar*

[PhilmerPhil]

Person at meeting: "I'm concerned traffic will move onto neighborhood streets with the proposed changes."

Other person at meeting: "Park and Portland ARE neighborhood streets!"

Pretty much everyone at meeting: cheering and applause.

[seanrichardryan]

And arterial roads...

[Nick]

Without speaking to the merits of this plan, I'll just be the forever optimist by pointing that democracy (/slash whoever shows up and is loudest at a meeting) doesn't always come up with the best ideas.

[MNdible]

I wasn't at the meeting, so I've been limited to what I've read in a number of different sources.

To be clear, I support the Hennepin County plan in general. I don't have full access to all of the traffic counts, nor do I know how to analyze those when I see them, so I tend to defer to the engineers on these things.

I honestly am never on Park and Portland downtown during rush hour, so I can't comment on whether or not they need three lanes. I am around Lake and Park/Portland farely often, and even on weekends, it appears that they need three lanes in that area.

I don't fully understand the reasoning for the switch from the left side to the right side part way along the route -- that seems unfortunate, and likely a source of problems for bikers and cars in the future.

It's curious, when a neighbor objects to a new development next to them increasing density, we yell at them and call them NIMBY's and fault them for not understanding the big picture. When a neighbor objects to a street that carries a high volume of traffic because it serves a broad portion of the city, we praise them and tell them to keep fighting the good fight.

EDIT: Looks like Elf made sort of the same point before I posted this.

[PhilmerPhil]

I guess we just all have different opinions on what makes a good city. My opinion is the right one though!

[mplsjaromir]

It's curious, when a neighbor objects to a new development next to them increasing density, we yell at them and call them NIMBY's and fault them for not understanding the big picture. When a neighbor objects to a street that carries a high volume of traffic because it serves a broad portion of the city, we praise them and tell them to keep fighting the good fight.

I think most people on this forum find good urbanism rare and worthy. Criticizing people opposed turning a surface parking lot into a condo in a commercial node on a high frequency bus route fits this idea. Advocating turning a road designed to be a commuter arterial that was superseded by an interstate freeway, back into a human scale avenue is not conflicting in the least.

[1200onthemall]

Just like unlimited free parking, driving your car 3 blocks to pickup milk is an American Birthright and we must do nothing to change that......

[PhilmerPhil]

Park has been restriped to 2 car lanes and a buffered bike lane, Portland is next.