C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

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Anondson
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby Anondson » October 15th, 2020, 10:19 am

I had a fantasy dream of having the C extend across to Kenwood then down Franklin Ave on a bus-only viaduct bridge.

tmart
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » October 15th, 2020, 10:49 am

I had a fantasy dream of having the C extend across to Kenwood then down Franklin Ave on a bus-only viaduct bridge.
That is a fabulous idea. In my head it was unfortunate that there was no way to continue past Bryn Mawr station without switching to LRT, but a short bridge like that would be super promising, as would continuing along Franklin. It would certainly be ambitious, but not at all ridiculous or fantasy IMO.

Quoting my post from the last page because your post doesn't make as much sense without it :)
With the D Line funded and Bottineau LRT looking more and more like it might get rerouted to actually serve North, I was thinking about how there are gonna be three high-frequency lines that originate in North and all run across Downtown in the same direction. If all those lines run with high frequency, it's actually starting to get a bit redundant (which is a fantastic problem to have!).

I wonder if there's any chance that, rather than shifting to Glenwood, it would make sense to have the C Line terminate at Bryn Mawr station so it could act as a feeder for both the Blue and Green Lines. Obviously that would be contingent on both of those lines being built and having high enough frequency that the transfer is very fast. But eventually we'll want to have trunk lines and feeder lines in some reasonable approximation of a grid, rather than just having everything fan out from Downtown, and the C Line is probably the most sensible candidate. As a plus side, by not duplicating all that Downtown service, it potentially frees up capacity for more frequency all around.

The main drawbacks I can see are:
- No one-seat ride Downtown (which isn't actually that important if the trunk lines are high frequency, but planners seem to put a premium on it)
- Losing transfers to D/E/Orange Lines
- No rapid transit on Olson or Glenwood (except N/S at Penn)

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby SurlyLHT » October 15th, 2020, 11:33 am

The easiest way to extend it south would be to have it Take Cedar Lake Rd/Wayzata Blvd out of Bryn Mawr and then it could take Ewing/France to the W. Lake St SWLRT Station.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby Trademark » October 15th, 2020, 12:06 pm

The easiest way to extend it south would be to have it Take Cedar Lake Rd/Wayzata Blvd out of Bryn Mawr and then it could take Ewing/France to the W. Lake St SWLRT Station.

There's a lot of dead zone in that route without much transit potential to duplicate a route that could be taken with a transfer to a faster mode of travel. There are some bigger businesses down wayzata blvd but if we're gonna extend it that way id rather see it swing over to the west end. Unless we would cannibalize a big portion of the E line too and run it all the way down to Southdale.

tmart
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » October 15th, 2020, 12:18 pm

The easiest way to extend it south would be to have it Take Cedar Lake Rd/Wayzata Blvd out of Bryn Mawr and then it could take Ewing/France to the W. Lake St SWLRT Station.

There's a lot of dead zone in that route without much transit potential to duplicate a route that could be taken with a transfer to a faster mode of travel. There are some bigger businesses down wayzata blvd but if we're gonna extend it that way id rather see it swing over to the west end. Unless we would cannibalize a big portion of the E line too and run it all the way down to Southdale.
It's also kind of redundant, since transferring to the Green Line would be a faster way to get to West Lake in most cases. The West End idea is interesting, though I wonder if it would generate much ridership. An extension southward obviously isn't a requirement and in the absence of a slam dunk (say, Franklin) it might make more sense to instead use the shorter route to boost frequency from Brooklyn Center to Bryn Mawr Station.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby SurlyLHT » October 15th, 2020, 12:51 pm

The idea of extending it to West End or South of the rail trench to south, has too many costs and ineffiencies for what you gained compared to Glenwood which presently has probably more density than most of the C Line and is in the developing Harrison neighborhood. A chunk of this stretch also has some decent size employers. I could even see people from Downtown taking the C Line over here to work or go to La Dona and etc. There is also some space in the Heritage Park to be developed near Glenwood if my memory doesn't fail me.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby Trademark » October 15th, 2020, 3:03 pm

The idea of extending it to West End or South of the rail trench to south, has too many costs and ineffiencies for what you gained compared to Glenwood which presently has probably more density than most of the C Line and is in the developing Harrison neighborhood. A chunk of this stretch also has some decent size employers. I could even see people from Downtown taking the C Line over here to work or go to La Dona and etc. There is also some space in the Heritage Park to be developed near Glenwood if my memory doesn't fail me.
If we are gonna keep it heading towards downtown assuming a rerouted blue line. I think olsen still ma

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby twincitizen » October 15th, 2020, 6:10 pm

If the Blue Line is routed away from Olson Hwy entirely (e.g. heads north from Target Field on 7th), the C Line is a lock to stay on Olson to continue serving that corridor. Shifting the C Line to Glenwood was only conceived because Olson would've been overserved by transit if it was carrying the Blue Line, not because planners thought Glenwood was more deserving of the service than Olson. Remember that the 9 runs on Glenwood, and doesn't have super high ridership between downtown and West End. Jopefully that continues to grow now that they streamlined the service by eliminating its confusing branches. More frequent service can be added with demand as West End and Glenwood continue to infill, adding jobs and residents.

In a perfect world, Olson gets reduced to 4 lanes instead of the current 6, because that huge road is a blight on the area. But in the near-term, let's convert the outer lanes to bus-only lanes between Penn and the turn onto 7th.

As far as extending the C Line south and east of downtown, it seems kind of obvious it should cover the service area of the 14 or 22. Assuming local service sticks around, one idea I had is to keep it on 7th/8th all the way through Elliot Park, even getting onto Hiawatha freeway for a brief second, exiting immediately at Cedar Avenue and then serving Cedar all the way down. For whatever reason, Metro Transit only sees demand for aBRT on Cedar down to 38th, but I'd push for eventually continuing the service to Cedar Point Commons in Richfield.


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