Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

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DanPatchToget
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » January 7th, 2020, 1:28 pm

There was a meeting in Savage today about trying to move passenger rail in southern Minnesota forward.

Main points I got from that meeting:
-there’s more and more support for passenger rail from politicians and citizens
-some politicians don’t want to try to remove the Dan Patch Gag Order anymore and would rather instead call it something else and have it be different from commuter rail
-their theory is if they give it a different name there will be less controversy behind it
-as for specific proposals on how it would operate there doesn’t appear to be any at this time, and MnDOT’s passenger rail office is hoping for funding this year to do a study on what the service could look like

Overall I’m glad there’s more discussion and support, but there doesn’t seem to be a firm consensus on how we implement this, and if/when MnDOT gets funding to study this I’m concerned they’ll only look at the cheapest options even if they aren’t the best (like ending Northstar in Big Lake).

DanPatchToget
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » December 28th, 2021, 5:15 pm

Interesting little fact: Today marks exactly 20 years since MnDOT and consulting firm Parsons Brinckerhoff released the commuter rail feasibility study on the Dan Patch Line.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » January 31st, 2022, 4:15 pm

Representatives Jessica Hanson (District 56A) and Steve Elkins (District 49B) have authored a bill that would repeal the 2002 gag order on Dan Patch commuter rail.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.p ... se#actions

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » January 25th, 2023, 11:15 am

HF 246 has passed the sustainable infrastructure committee and moved on to the transportation committee.

This bill would repeal the gag order of Dan Patch and Intercity rail from the Twin Cities to Rochester.

Me and 3 of my friends testified at the committee meeting today.

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 7th, 2023, 5:44 pm

SF 1430 has been introduced calling for the study of the Dan Patch Line!!!! It calls for DMU or diesel-electric multiple unit trains. Positive Train Control, and quiet zones. A couple things to note tho it says "One or more counties or regional railroad authorities may perform a feasibility study for a rail transitway in a corridor from St. Louis Park to Savage." I'm not sure why it's not including Minneapolis? I can understand stopping it in Savage, as Lakeville is heavily opposed to this and just wrote a letter expressing their opposition to overturning the gag order, but I can't understand they not end the line in Minneapolis?

I have emailed Sen Port for clarification on this, and will update once I get a response as there could be a reason that I don't understand.

Also its interesting that it requires that a Dan Patch train can operate on track and infrastructure for the Southwest light rail transit line. I'm not sure why that's included there as outside of a tunnel there doesn't appear to be anyway to connect the Dan Patch Line to SWLRT without massive property takes.

Here's the full text of the bill. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.p ... n_number=0

thespeedmccool
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby thespeedmccool » February 7th, 2023, 6:11 pm

SF 1430 has been introduced calling for the study of the Dan Patch Line!!!! It calls for DMU or diesel-electric multiple unit trains. Positive Train Control, and quiet zones. A couple things to note tho it says "One or more counties or regional railroad authorities may perform a feasibility study for a rail transitway in a corridor from St. Louis Park to Savage." I'm not sure why it's not including Minneapolis? I can understand stopping it in Savage, as Lakeville is heavily opposed to this and just wrote a letter expressing their opposition to overturning the gag order, but I can't understand they not end the line in Minneapolis?

I have emailed Sen Port for clarification on this, and will update once I get a response as there could be a reason that I don't understand.

Also its interesting that it requires that a Dan Patch train can operate on track and infrastructure for the Southwest light rail transit line. I'm not sure why that's included there as outside of a tunnel there doesn't appear to be anyway to connect the Dan Patch Line to SWLRT without massive property takes.

Here's the full text of the bill. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.p ... n_number=0
My read on the STL park terminus + the SWLRT language says to me that Senator Port is looking for them to study using the Dan Patch alignment for LRT in addition to commuter/diesel rail.

Seems sloppily written, TBH. One subsection implies that an LRT alternative must be studied, and another stipulates that a train must be both diesel AND equipped to operate on SWLRT tracks. I imagine it'll get cleaned up with an amendment.

I hope they extend the study corridor to Northfield and beyond. Lakeville's opposition be damned. The GOP State Senator who represents Faribault and Owatonna supports regional rail; those communities shouldn't be left out because Lakeville NIMBYs think it'll be loud (especially since Lakeville will be voting DFL by the time this would be completed.)

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 7th, 2023, 6:39 pm

SF 1430 has been introduced calling for the study of the Dan Patch Line!!!! It calls for DMU or diesel-electric multiple unit trains. Positive Train Control, and quiet zones. A couple things to note tho it says "One or more counties or regional railroad authorities may perform a feasibility study for a rail transitway in a corridor from St. Louis Park to Savage." I'm not sure why it's not including Minneapolis? I can understand stopping it in Savage, as Lakeville is heavily opposed to this and just wrote a letter expressing their opposition to overturning the gag order, but I can't understand they not end the line in Minneapolis?

I have emailed Sen Port for clarification on this, and will update once I get a response as there could be a reason that I don't understand.

Also its interesting that it requires that a Dan Patch train can operate on track and infrastructure for the Southwest light rail transit line. I'm not sure why that's included there as outside of a tunnel there doesn't appear to be anyway to connect the Dan Patch Line to SWLRT without massive property takes.

Here's the full text of the bill. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.p ... n_number=0
My read on the STL park terminus + the SWLRT language says to me that Senator Port is looking for them to study using the Dan Patch alignment for LRT in addition to commuter/diesel rail.

Seems sloppily written, TBH. One subsection implies that an LRT alternative must be studied, and another stipulates that a train must be both diesel AND equipped to operate on SWLRT tracks. I imagine it'll get cleaned up with an amendment.

I hope they extend the study corridor to Northfield and beyond. Lakeville's opposition be damned. The GOP State Senator who represents Faribault and Owatonna supports regional rail; those communities shouldn't be left out because Lakeville NIMBYs think it'll be loud (especially since Lakeville will be voting DFL by the time this would be completed.)
I just realized something. I think the active rail corridor ends in Savage. So that could be why the language of the bill is that way. Lakeville/Northfield may still be on the table.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7526245 ... 384!8i8192

DanPatchToget
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » February 7th, 2023, 8:50 pm

The GOP State Senator who represents Faribault and Owatonna supports regional rail; those communities shouldn't be left out because Lakeville NIMBYs think it'll be loud (especially since Lakeville will be voting DFL by the time this would be completed.)
Matt Little, who was mayor of Lakeville (elected when he was only 27 years old!) and represented District 58 in the state senate, is a DFL member. It's definitely not often, but there are times the exurbs lean a tiny bit left.

As for that study, I recall a few years ago there was a similar proposal. I interpret it as either having Dan Patch Line trains terminate at Southwest LRT's Louisiana Avenue Station or use a new connection from the Dan Patch Line to the Southwest LRT tracks and use those to reach Minneapolis, so it would be a tram-train operation (light rail trains on tracks shared with freight and regional/intercity trains). That might be difficult since there would need to be approval from the freight railroads, the FRA (governs our national rail network), and the FTA (governs local transit like light rail, streetcars, and subway that aren't connected to the national rail network). They could do temporal separation like the River Line in New Jersey and the Blue Line in San Diego where freight trains aren't running while the light rail is operating, but I'm not sure the freight railroads would be on board with that.

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 7th, 2023, 9:47 pm

The GOP State Senator who represents Faribault and Owatonna supports regional rail; those communities shouldn't be left out because Lakeville NIMBYs think it'll be loud (especially since Lakeville will be voting DFL by the time this would be completed.)
Matt Little, who was mayor of Lakeville (elected when he was only 27 years old!) and represented District 58 in the state senate, is a DFL member. It's definitely not often, but there are times the exurbs lean a tiny bit left.

As for that study, I recall a few years ago there was a similar proposal. I interpret it as either having Dan Patch Line trains terminate at Southwest LRT's Louisiana Avenue Station or use a new connection from the Dan Patch Line to the Southwest LRT tracks and use those to reach Minneapolis, so it would be a tram-train operation (light rail trains on tracks shared with freight and regional/intercity trains). That might be difficult since there would need to be approval from the freight railroads, the FRA (governs our national rail network), and the FTA (governs local transit like light rail, streetcars, and subway that aren't connected to the national rail network). They could do temporal separation like the River Line in New Jersey and the Blue Line in San Diego where freight trains aren't running while the light rail is operating, but I'm not sure the freight railroads would be on board with that.
I don't see how you can connect Dan Patch to Southwest without a ton of property takings. As for terminating at Southwest LRT. I hate that idea of a forced transfer with a 3 minute walk for the vast majority of riders to a rail line with 10 minute frequency. Plus it misses the West End which is one of the biggest ridership generators on the route.

I don't think I could endorse that plan with forcing a transfer to SWLRT.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » February 7th, 2023, 10:09 pm

There's a switchback used by Canadian Pacific that could be modified to allow trains from the Dan Patch Line going north to connect with the Southwest LRT tracks going east.

With that said I also don't support a forced transfer in St. Louis Park and missing the West End. Rebuilding the track connecting the Dan Patch Line with BNSF's Wayzata Subdivision would be way easier than trying to utilize the Southwest LRT tracks.

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 7th, 2023, 10:32 pm

There's a switchback used by Canadian Pacific that could be modified to allow trains from the Dan Patch Line going north to connect with the Southwest LRT tracks going east.

With that said I also don't support a forced transfer in St. Louis Park and missing the West End. Rebuilding the track connecting the Dan Patch Line with BNSF's Wayzata Subdivision would be way easier than trying to utilize the Southwest LRT tracks.
Unless they would route a light rail route onto the Greenway to Hiawatha. I don't think it's a good idea. I definitely wouldn't support it if it was the only route option that could be studied. It just seems like replacing one gag order for a less bad gag order. Plus if it's light rail, that wouldn't allow for Amtrak trains to go to Des Moines and Kansas City on this corridor.

Tom H.
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Tom H. » February 8th, 2023, 9:06 am

Seems like a lot of bother to just avoid rebuilding the wye that used to exist between the Dan Patch line and the BNSF line that heads straight to Target Field (which is the obvious logical terminus).

As for an LRT alternative down Dan Patch - I thought we'd learned our lessons about trusting the benevolence of the railroads for co-locating LRT with active freight lines. Just keep it as commuter or regional rail, turning up the BNSF line to reach Target Field, and you can build a station serving the West End just west of Cedar Lake Rd & Hwy 100.

alexschief
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby alexschief » February 8th, 2023, 10:09 am

I get that people have been pining over the Dan Patch line forever, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be prioritized over a route running through Rosemount and Farmington before hitting Northfield (and then onward to Faribault, Owatonna, and Rochester, although either line could hit these towns). Much of the area that was originally envisioned as part of the Dan Patch corridor is spoken for by existing and planned BRT and LRT, which would serve similar functions as any Dan Patch service.

The PGR ROW through Rosemount and Farmington seems better suited for high-quality regional rail, it's much straighter!

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 8th, 2023, 10:24 am

I get that people have been pining over the Dan Patch line forever, but at this point I'm not sure why it would be prioritized over a route running through Rosemount and Farmington before hitting Northfield (and then onward to Faribault, Owatonna, and Rochester, although either line could hit these towns). Much of the area that was originally envisioned as part of the Dan Patch corridor is spoken for by existing and planned BRT and LRT, which would serve similar functions as any Dan Patch service.

The PGR ROW through Rosemount and Farmington seems better suited for high-quality regional rail, it's much straighter!
Highly disagree. West end, hwy 100 and 50th, Normandale Lakes, Old Shakopee and Dan patch, Savage, and Lakeville all have no planned BRT or LRT serving it.

Rosemount and Farmington are good stations, but besides maybe US-52 and 56 there are no other good stations that it hits. I'm not saying it's a bad line or that it couldnt be built also but it's not as good as Dan Patch.

alexschief
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby alexschief » February 8th, 2023, 11:00 am

I guess my point is, I don't think Dan Patch is a particularly good route.

It's winding, indirect, and has a lot of bad station locations relative to the activity centers you've listed above. It's a weird modal fit, the length of the Blue or Green Line LRT when fully extended, but serving nowhere near the same density of uses. If you ranked potential LRT routes in the Twin Cities, you could probably come up with a half dozen or more. But then, it's also not a great way to deploy an intercity rail service, which ideally you would want to stop a little less frequently and move more quickly. Hence my question about why you'd prioritize Dan Patch instead of a route that moves more quickly and ends in Owatonna or Rochester.

I guess you can think of it as a suburban rail model, but MSP is largely filling that niche with highway bus service, which is cheaper to deploy and probably would have better station locations. If serving Normandale Lakes was somehow a major regional priority, you could do so easily by bus. The West End could be served well by a 394 BRT, Lakeville by a Red Line Extension, etc.

The Dan Patch Line looks to me like a route that replicates the same flawed logic that sent the SWLRT through the woods and almost sent the Bottineau LRT through the marsh: this idea that just because the ROW is there, we should use it for passenger rail. In this case, I don't really see how the route or the mode makes any sense relative to alternatives.

Mdcastle
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Mdcastle » February 8th, 2023, 3:48 pm

We shouldn't count on any kind of cooperation from BSNF in Hennepin County. Not even running more passenger trains on their freight lines.

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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby DanPatchToget » February 8th, 2023, 8:30 pm

In general I'm hesitant to support more suburban BRT routes, especially ones that are labeled as a replacement for light rail or regional rail service. There could be a promise for buses every 10 minutes, but if you don't have the drivers then that's not happening, which we've seen with the Orange Line going from 15-minute to 30-minute midday frequency among other cuts to our bus service because of the ongoing driver shortage. Seems like attracting train operators would be at least slightly easier than bus drivers since they have limited interaction with the public and don't have to deal with cars and pedestrians as much as buses. Also, thinking far long term, it would be easier to make trains autonomous than buses, which could mean no longer needing train operators and a driver shortage for trains wouldn't be an issue.

As for dealing with the freight railroads, that's why we need to nationalize the railway network or at the very least have a federal government that will put pressure on the freight railroads to work with municipalities on proposed transitways that would utilize their right-of-way. With the current freight traffic on the Dan Patch Line it wouldn't be an issue to add regional rail service. Unless CP, Progressive Rail, or Twin Cities & Western has plans for a massive increase in freight traffic on the Dan Patch Line, then I don't see any legitimate reason for them opposing regional rail. BNSF definitely doesn't have a legit reason for opposing the Blue Line along their tracks since light rail trains would use their own tracks, but I digress.

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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby rhettcarlson » February 10th, 2023, 4:00 pm

Strib: Lawmakers seek to lift gag order on commuter rail between Minneapolis, Northfield

https://www.startribune.com/lawmakers-r ... fresh=true

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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby luigipaladio » February 10th, 2023, 10:58 pm

South of the Minnesota River, The Dan Patch Line with a link into Northfield seems to make some sense. It seems like it would also make some sense to use the line to link to the southwest extension of the Green Line as far south as possible. It just doesn't make any sense to have it run essentially parallel to the Green line to some point farther north.

Trademark
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Re: Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

Postby Trademark » February 11th, 2023, 3:22 am

My issue isn't only that missing the West End and interlining with Southwest thereby eliminating the possibility of Amtrak using the line is a mistake. It's that we are trying to legislate away our alternatives analysis.


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