Amtrak: Empire Builder and Borealis (TCMC)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby DanPatchToget » March 31st, 2021, 10:47 pm

The big caveat with this plan is that Amtrak doesn't build or own its own track, with the exception of the Northeast Corridor between Boston and DC. Instead, it just uses existing freight routes, and there is not (maybe never has been?) a direct route between the Twin Cities and Rochester. So, barring construction of an entirely new dedicated corridor like the Zip Rail proposal, any Amtrak service to Rochester would have to start by going 40 miles east or west to get to Winona or Owatonna before turning north to the Cities.
The Chicago Great Western Railway had a direct route between the Twin Cities and Rochester, but much of the right-of-way has been abandoned for around 40 years and taken over by farming.

Would've been nice if they included a MSP-Kanas City service on that map, but if not in the near term then in the long-term it makes sense to have a MSP-Des Moines service that splits to Kansas City and St. Louis.

Also speaking from a long-term perspective, I think MSP-Rochester-La Crosse-Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago is an ideal candidate for high speed rail, or at the very least higher speed rail.

StandishGuy
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby StandishGuy » April 17th, 2021, 5:36 pm

Just went through all 23 pages of this thread wanting to understand the situation of passenger rail through this corridor, and found this article from 2018 describing how a couple MN State Legislators were able to cancel study of High Speed Rail between St. Paul and Chicago: https://www.startribune.com/not-everyon ... 468357413/
It appears that much of the study is complete, but they turned back a grant to finish it. Perhaps, the study could finally get completed now that a new administration is supportive of HSR?

Also, I watched a Youtube video from an organization called the Illinois Passenger Rail Association from last month about the Chicago to St. Louis route. It explained that Republican governors and the Trump administration had a big role in slowing down implementation of the HSR route. Also, it sounds like the quality of the track, stations and rolling stock are great even if 110MPH isn't happening right now.

Korh
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Korh » May 30th, 2021, 10:46 am

Amtraks full connectUS plan is out
https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-con ... 7_2021.pdf
They mention wanting to extend 3 Hiawatha trains to reach MSP split between the current route and through Eau Claire. They also mentioned the NLX so it seems they do want to run it

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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby EOst » June 24th, 2021, 12:59 pm

The Transportation bill just passed includes the $10m match for the second train to Chicago.

twincitizen
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby twincitizen » June 25th, 2021, 1:30 pm

Any idea when that additional service could begin? I assume it’s at least 4 years out

Silophant
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Silophant » June 25th, 2021, 2:14 pm

This ~two-month-old handout from the WIDOT website projects 2024. (I'm assuming that, same as all our local transit rollouts, any date specified as just a year without a month included means December of that year.)
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Trademark » June 25th, 2021, 4:47 pm

This ~two-month-old handout from the WIDOT website projects 2024. (I'm assuming that, same as all our local transit rollouts, any date specified as just a year without a month included means December of that year.)
And most likely delayed to the next year as is the case with most projects these days.

Korh
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Korh » June 25th, 2021, 7:41 pm

This ~two-month-old handout from the WIDOT website projects 2024. (I'm assuming that, same as all our local transit rollouts, any date specified as just a year without a month included means December of that year.)
So I'm gonna guess 3-4 years once it actually gets funded/passed. If they manage to get everything rolling and on track before the end of 2021 I might say they'll meet the 2024 date, but if things get delayed until 2022-23 I won't expect the train till at least 2027-28

Didier
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Didier » June 26th, 2021, 12:44 am

What's the justification for this taking four years?

the other scott
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby the other scott » June 29th, 2021, 6:24 am


mattaudio
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby mattaudio » June 29th, 2021, 10:00 pm

Anyone know if there’s been study of bumping any of this corridor from 79 to 110 MPH speed limit?

commissioner
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby commissioner » June 30th, 2021, 12:28 am

Anyone know if there’s been study of bumping any of this corridor from 79 to 110 MPH speed limit?
I haven't seen any but I can't see this being bumped to 110 especially along the river between La Crosse and Hastings. too curvy and towns. Between Milwaukee and La Crosse, maybe, but not in MN.

Mdcastle
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Mdcastle » June 30th, 2021, 7:06 am

79 mph speed limit? I take it there's some kind of design standard that takes effect at 80 mph?

DanPatchToget
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby DanPatchToget » June 30th, 2021, 7:27 am

79 mph speed limit? I take it there's some kind of design standard that takes effect at 80 mph?
Correct. Above 79 mph requires more advanced train control systems, and very likely also upgrades to the tracks and railroad crossings.

Why they chose 79 as the magic number would require asking the people from the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1947 who made that decision after a train going 80 mph collided into a stopped train in Illinois a year prior. Keeping in mind at that time it was more common for passenger trains to operate around 100 mph, including passenger trains that operated between the Twin Cities and Chicago.

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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby alexschief » June 30th, 2021, 8:19 am

Basically every crayon of HSR from MSP to Chicago involves a new alignment from St. Paul to La Crosse because the curves on the river route are unacceptable and unchangeable.

Korh
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby Korh » June 30th, 2021, 9:21 am

upgrading it to 110mph seems unlikely, although bumping up some sections to 90mph in a few sections might be possible.

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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby talindsay » July 1st, 2021, 10:55 am

Years ago when I spoke with the passenger rail guy at MnDOT about this he indicated that they were redoing the crossings and the signaling to allow operation above 79; my recollection is 90 and not 110, but I could be recalling incorrectly.

There's a lot of obstacles to operating at higher speeds. If all the obstacles except the curves are removed, then the trains can simply slow down for the curves. Recall that even the Acela has to slow down to ridiculously low speeds for some of the curves in New England, but the other obstacles to operation up to 145 are mostly removed so it still makes better time through the curvy sections than it would with the 79 limit in place.

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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder and Intercity Rail to Chicago

Postby mulad » July 3rd, 2021, 1:16 pm

I think the fastest stretch in Minnesota would be from around Hastings to the northern/western edge of Red Wing. The book The Hiawatha Story by Jim Scribbins has a log of speeds that a train had on February 2, 1939, which maxed out at 100 mph in a few spots in Wisconsin. The train (the Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha at the time -- the Empire Builder runs over that now rather than the historic CB&Q route on the east side of the Mississippi River and through northern Illinois) was running from Chicago to Minneapolis, so I think they might have slowed a bit once they hit Minnesota just because they were probably ahead of schedule.

The fastest recorded time in MN on that run was 89 mph, which was indeed somewhere between Prairie Island and Hastings. Notably, that was just 3.5 minutes after the train had stopped at a red signal, and the log notes "Rear of train over broken rail", so they likely had multiple reasons to avoid running at full chat at that point.

But this reminds me of how disappointing it's been that we didn't make any progress on the Red Rock corridor, especially if it could have gone all the way to Red Wing. But that was intended to be a Northstar-ish commuter train anyway, but with even fewer trips (and probably only in the peak direction), and I think that's one of many routes where it would be better to just have fairly evenly-spaced trips through the day rather than trying to focus so much on commuters.

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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder to Chicago

Postby Silophant » August 18th, 2021, 9:55 pm

Amtrak posted more details about their big ConnectsUS plan today. Here's the page for the TCMC proposal. It discusses both the now-funded extension of one Hiawatha round trip via the Empire Builder routing, and the future plans for extending three round trips via Madison with two routes between Madison and the Twin Cities: the existing La Crosse-Winona-Red Wing route and a new Eau Claire-Menomonie-Hudson route. Presumably there would be two trips on the Eau Claire route and one on the La Crosse route, with the Empire Builder continuing to provide a second daily trip via La Crosse. There seem to be a couple hints on the page that the TCMC services might extend to Minneapolis, not just St. Paul, but maybe that's just me wishcasting.
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DanPatchToget
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Re: Amtrak Empire Builder to Chicago

Postby DanPatchToget » August 18th, 2021, 10:07 pm

Makes sense to go the extra 15 or so miles to Target Field Station since those trains would terminate in the Twin Cities anyway. I assume the platform at TFS would be able to fit intercity corridor trains since they're shorter than long-distance trains like the Empire Builder.


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