Fantasy maps

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » December 13th, 2019, 11:21 am

Updated version of my regional rail system map. This includes:
-a new "Minneapolis Central Station" under downtown that would handle the majority of traffic with trains coming as frequently as every couple minutes, all trains serving this station would have the ability to operate electrically (hybrid units and/or battery units)
-the "Soo Liner" now wraps around the West End area in St. Louis Park
-routes going southwest through Eden Prairie would utilize some of the Southwest LRT infrastructure (specifically between just south of Golden Triangle Station and just south of Shady Oak Station)
-regional bus routes included

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1piTUr ... sp=sharing

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Oreos&Milk » January 12th, 2020, 2:47 pm

Since we're in fantasy mode...

What if we extended Southwest LRT via existing HCRRA/MnDOT rights-of-way (mostly the old railroad grade to Chaska) with split service to Downtown Chaska and Downtown Shakopee? Those two downtowns are two of the seven county seats in our metro area, and they could relatively easily be served by a SWLRT extension, single-tracked past the split. A split service would connect each of these destinations every 20-30 minutes.

Considering where a Shakopee downtown station would be, it would make a great interchange with any sort of commuter or regional rail on the Union Pacific line to Mankato and beyond. Then invite major employers/nodes such as Amazon and Shutterfly to run private shuttles from this downtown transit hub to their exurban employment centers, something far more financially viable than MVTA running reverse commute services.

swlrt_extension.jpg
You know I wonder if it would be worth considering an extension into Valley Fair similar to how other theme park around the world have some sort of rail connection but I'm hesitant to suggest it even for a fantasy map since VF is a lot smaller than the aforementioned other theme parks and unless they where to add something for winter activities, an extension would be pretty much useless half of the year (might be better to run shuttles like amazon or shutterfly)
I agree it’s almost worth mentioning in a fantasy thread. However what about connecting the proposed metro miller’s ballpark, Canterbury park, a Shakopee park and ride and the mystic lake casino. Given the recent push for downtown casinos I would think mystic would be rather motivated to better connect to the metro area. Heck even the proposed American BRT line could have a ending station in this area as well. Maybe when it’s up and running an extension will be more realized once they see it’s massive value. I mean those mystic busses funding could have more value going towards a private and public partnership.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » February 8th, 2020, 6:41 pm

Very interested to see what happens with their express routes and the ridership between the two if/when they keep them. Not something I would use much anymore, but I’m still annoyed Metro Transit nerfed the off peak 94 to put people on the slower train. If urban users were forced into that, southwest metro commuters should be also.
I Don't think that might be an issue given how SW transit is kinda its own thing and not completely under Metro Transits thumb.
On a side note this might be wandering into fantasy maps a bit but anyone else here wonder if SW Transit had enough capital to by some cars and maybe build a few sections of third track, they would try and make a none-stop service between SW station and downtown
Your idea is kind of like mine in which mainline trains (local to Carver, regional to Mankato and New Ulm) would utilize the Southwest LRT infrastructure and stations (skipping some stations to decrease travel time) between Southwest Station and St. Louis Park and then the freight tracks going into Minneapolis. I'm not sure how many sidings would be needed but since the frequency would be lower (probably every 30 minutes for the local trains and every hour to 2 hours for regional trains) I'm hoping there wouldn't need to be significant upgrades to allow mainline trains (specifically self-propelled and single-level trains like our light rail trains but allowed to operate on tracks governed by the FRA) on light rail tracks. Obviously this would require some change in governance, specifically allowing tram-train operations and requiring the railroads to accept this kind of operation since I know for a fact Union Pacific doesn't want self-propelled trains on their right-of-way.

I figure since we're spending $2 billion on this infrastructure we should take advantage of it as much as we can, and this infrastructure might provide opportunity for having regional rail service from Minneapolis to Carver and beyond to Mankato and New Ulm via Union Pacific's Mankato Subdivision.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » February 17th, 2020, 6:15 pm

Kind of crazy idea although maybe it has some merit; extend the Blue Line west on 55 to Golden Valley instead of Bottineau.

talindsay
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby talindsay » December 9th, 2020, 11:51 am

So this is by no means a fantasy map, but it belongs here because it's all about how one conceptualizes transit networks. Paris, the densest city in the western world, also has one of the world's busiest metro systems. With an extensive new "suburban" (Paris' suburbs are denser than almost every major urban core in America) network of radial lines under development, they're rethinking how they represent transit in Ile-de-France. Viscerally I don't like this map but that's probably because I associate the old map with my time in Paris. It's an interesting map though, using true circles to represent radial lines.
New Paris Metro Map

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » January 4th, 2021, 10:26 am

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

This is basically an alternate universe where the Twin Cities follows Denver and Dallas's example of having large rapid transit networks but the routes miss a lot of important and high density areas in favor of easy and cheap routes to build on. I didn't include commuter rail, but I assume the Northstar Line would still be built and maybe one or two other routes. The majority of stations on busways would be online (on the freeway, a local example being the existing I-35W & 46th Street Station).

There are of course tons of considerations when looking into alternate timelines like this, but it's best not to take it too seriously. The point of making this was to see what our rapid transit system could look if we were like Dallas and Denver in terms of planning light rail and BRT routes. However, I haven't been to either of those cities so I've only read and looked at their transit systems from the web, so if anyone has experience with either of those systems let me know if you think this is accurate or inaccurate.

I'll also note that some routes appear to go through a lot of buildings (particularly in Downtown Minneapolis), but not long ago these sites were surface lots, and before that they were likely railroad right-of-way.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » January 28th, 2021, 6:41 pm

An update to my proposed Twin Cities transit system map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

The main changes are removal of the regional rail line to Medina, adjustments to the Monti Line alignment, and the Gold Line goes through the Tamarack Village area in Woodbury instead of Woodbury Village.

COLSLAW5
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby COLSLAW5 » January 29th, 2021, 11:00 am

Any chance that the map edit give you the distances of the lines? It would be fun to use historical cost per mile for the different modes to see what something like this would run

Trademark
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Trademark » January 29th, 2021, 1:34 pm

I would be so interested in setting up a zoom session of various people on this message board to make a collaborative fantasy map. Something that we can be proactive in bringing forward to legislators and other advocates.

We all talk about how we want a network instead of just one-off projects and I think selling a realistic vision of a network would be an opportunity to get it done. Especially if we pair it with the estimated the estimated influx of cash that would come from a gas tax and motor vehicle tax looking at other models that have passed another cities.

If we have a group of people that are Transit minded with different perspectives and backgrounds and from different parts of the city it would allow us to cut down our fantasy maps into something that can be realistically funded. Have an upper limit of new rail miles new rail stations new busway miles new busway stations. Strategically implemented tunnels and bridges.

Use Alon Levy's funding estimates and see what's really possible.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » January 29th, 2021, 3:44 pm

Any chance that the map edit give you the distances of the lines? It would be fun to use historical cost per mile for the different modes to see what something like this would run
aBRT system length: approximately 196 miles (keep in mind I didn't subtract the overlaps of certain routes like in the downtowns)
BRT system length: approximately 180 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)
LRT system length: approximately 108 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)
RGR system length: approximately 745 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)

Trademark
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Trademark » January 29th, 2021, 11:05 pm

I like your fantasy map. I have a few criticisms. But I know that if this was reality it would change this city forever and elevate it.

I'm going to start working on my own. I had one on my last computer until it crashed.
Any chance that the map edit give you the distances of the lines? It would be fun to use historical cost per mile for the different modes to see what something like this would run
aBRT system length: approximately 196 miles (keep in mind I didn't subtract the overlaps of certain routes like in the downtowns)
BRT system length: approximately 180 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)
LRT system length: approximately 108 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)
RGR system length: approximately 745 miles (with route overlaps subtracted)

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » June 2nd, 2021, 6:39 pm

For several years I've thought about what to do for transit improvements along the I-494 Corridor between Mall of America and Eden Prairie. As some of you know aBRT was considered along American Boulevard when Metro Transit did their aBRT study in 2012. That route was recently dropped from consideration, and it's probably for the best since it wasn't a well thought out proposal.

I still believe light rail should be considered along this corridor since there would already be existing light rail infrastructure at both ends. However, I've been more open to the idea of BRT along this corridor, and I mean real BRT with dedicated bus lanes along the majority of the corridor, the majority of traffic signals giving buses priority, and other features that are the same or similar to light rail. With BRT we would also be able to serve many more destinations along the I-494 Corridor since they're too far apart to serve with a single route.

This would bring a huge upgrade in transit service to this highly traveled area, and while it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, a light rail line along this corridor would likely cost around $2 billion and would be limited to a single route. I assume Metro Transit and the Met Council are trying to stay away from branches on their Metro routes, but I think in this case route branches are justified.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

tmart
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby tmart » June 3rd, 2021, 12:15 am

For several years I've thought about what to do for transit improvements along the I-494 Corridor between Mall of America and Eden Prairie. As some of you know aBRT was considered along American Boulevard when Metro Transit did their aBRT study in 2012. That route was recently dropped from consideration, and it's probably for the best since it wasn't a well thought out proposal.

I still believe light rail should be considered along this corridor since there would already be existing light rail infrastructure at both ends. However, I've been more open to the idea of BRT along this corridor, and I mean real BRT with dedicated bus lanes along the majority of the corridor, the majority of traffic signals giving buses priority, and other features that are the same or similar to light rail. With BRT we would also be able to serve many more destinations along the I-494 Corridor since they're too far apart to serve with a single route.

This would bring a huge upgrade in transit service to this highly traveled area, and while it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, a light rail line along this corridor would likely cost around $2 billion and would be limited to a single route. I assume Metro Transit and the Met Council are trying to stay away from branches on their Metro routes, but I think in this case route branches are justified.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
For the branching parts, I kinda think this ends up being worst-of-both-worlds, where the intermediate destinations aren't transit-oriented enough to attract ridership themselves but the route isn't direct/fast enough to lure anyone out of their car, either.

IMO the most interesting possibilities in this corridor would to be focus on the eastern half, via a short extension of the existing Blue Line connecting MOA to one of the future Orange Line stations, or perhaps York or France. That would allow Orange Line passengers to transfer for MOA and Airport access, and add a couple stations connecting Downtown Minneapolis (and maybe someday St. Paul!) to some of the bigger commercial sites along the corridor, with at least some residential walksheds and opportunities for perpendicular bus transfers. And it would only be a couple miles/stations, at-grade, along what should be fairly straightforward rights of way. The trickiest part would be potentially reconfiguring the existing Bloomington segment of the Blue Line and MOA station, but that might be an opportunity in disguise, given how slow and indirect it is today.

It wouldn't be an enormous project on the scale of SWLRT, and it wouldn't address the highway traffic coming from the SW Metro, but it would be a start that would probably get at least decent ridership and build on our most effective existing investments.

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mattaudio
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby mattaudio » June 3rd, 2021, 3:47 pm

IMO the most interesting possibilities in this corridor would to be focus on the eastern half, via a short extension of the existing Blue Line connecting MOA to one of the future Orange Line stations, or perhaps York or France. .... The trickiest part would be potentially reconfiguring the existing Bloomington segment of the Blue Line and MOA station, but that might be an opportunity in disguise, given how slow and indirect it is today.
Years ago before MOA expanded beyond its original footprint and when Lindau was being extended east of 24th Ave, a few of my FaNtAsY mApS suggested the idea of continuing the Blue Line west from a realigned 28th Ave Station to a new MOA Station along Lindau Lane:
2021-06-03 16_43_19-MOA LRT - Google My Maps — Mozilla Firefox.png
This would have had a few advantages:
* Cut the slow and circuitous alignment between 28th Ave and MOA stations
* Put the station more at the center of the MOA complex after its northward expansion (where the Lindau underpass now is)
* Allow for future extensions westward for interlined service on American Blvd or the Hwy 77 corridor, needling through the Hwy 77 flyovers: https://goo.gl/maps/xanXjCoUUbhVMpXK6

tmart
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby tmart » June 3rd, 2021, 5:04 pm

IMO the most interesting possibilities in this corridor would to be focus on the eastern half, via a short extension of the existing Blue Line connecting MOA to one of the future Orange Line stations, or perhaps York or France. .... The trickiest part would be potentially reconfiguring the existing Bloomington segment of the Blue Line and MOA station, but that might be an opportunity in disguise, given how slow and indirect it is today.
Years ago before MOA expanded beyond its original footprint and when Lindau was being extended east of 24th Ave, a few of my FaNtAsY mApS suggested the idea of continuing the Blue Line west from a realigned 28th Ave Station to a new MOA Station along Lindau Lane:
2021-06-03 16_43_19-MOA LRT - Google My Maps — Mozilla Firefox.png

This would have had a few advantages:
* Cut the slow and circuitous alignment between 28th Ave and MOA stations
* Put the station more at the center of the MOA complex after its northward expansion (where the Lindau underpass now is)
* Allow for future extensions westward for interlined service on American Blvd or the Hwy 77 corridor, needling through the Hwy 77 flyovers: https://goo.gl/maps/xanXjCoUUbhVMpXK6
Yeah, this is almost exactly what I was envisioning, except possibly cutting through the MOA/Ikea parking lot rather than the interchange.

Trademark
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Trademark » June 3rd, 2021, 6:16 pm

For the 494 corridor I would use the new 77th street underpass to connect to 77th street on the north side of the freeway. With 4 lanes and turn lanes there is plenty of room to make median bus lanes all along this corridor to Knox Ave. Where it would interline with the Orange Line to serve the stops at Best Buy and American Blvd (Unfortunately going westbound it won't hit the station at American Blvd but that's a small thing to fix and even if they don't there is still a transfer station at Best Buy). It would continue west on American Blvd until Bush Lake Road then hop on the freeway and take 494 to 212 to the terminus of the Green Line.

There should still be a connecting bus in the vein of the 540 that goes on the opposite side of the freeway that the BRT is. I think that this would be the best balance connectivity, speed, and simplicity. West of Bush Lake Rd I don't see the demand for any additional stations if there is a transfer shuttle to the Golden Triangle with more limited frequency that could work good but otherwise a connection to the Green Line could handle a lot of that traffic. Being able to get up to speed on 494 in that stretch is a huge advantage to the vast majority of riders who wouldn't stop there.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » June 12th, 2021, 4:06 pm

Here's my proposed BRT system for the I-394/Highway 55 Corridor. Similar in design and operation to my proposed BRT routes along the I-494 Corridor except there's more highway running on this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

Trademark
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Trademark » June 13th, 2021, 2:25 am

Here's my proposed BRT system for the I-394/Highway 55 Corridor. Similar in design and operation to my proposed BRT routes along the I-494 Corridor except there's more highway running on this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
Running on Laurel Avenue is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense as their isn't a lot on 55 in that area. Great idea!

For the 55 BRT I would probably extend it out to Hy-Vee.

My main problem with these BRT routes is. Legibility and the length of time to get between stops. I think these would be great designs as local routes. But for any rapid transit being able to cover a distance in a consistent time is important. With all of these stops even with dedicated lanes and signal preemption it's still going to take a long time to get along this route. Not even close to being competitive with driving. (I know that very little transit will be competitive with driving but it's still a difference from it being 2x driving to 3x driving.) Not to mention all of the turns. And the lack of legibility for someone to know where it's going and where to catch it. The orange line will give that, the gold line will give that. Even for all of its many many MANY problems the red line will do that too.

As a whole tho. I respect the ideas you had with these routes. I jus differ in philosophy as far as priority's in the implementation of a BRT system in general

DanPatchToget
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby DanPatchToget » June 13th, 2021, 3:17 pm

Here's my proposed BRT system for the I-394/Highway 55 Corridor. Similar in design and operation to my proposed BRT routes along the I-494 Corridor except there's more highway running on this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
Running on Laurel Avenue is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense as their isn't a lot on 55 in that area. Great idea!

For the 55 BRT I would probably extend it out to Hy-Vee.

My main problem with these BRT routes is. Legibility and the length of time to get between stops. I think these would be great designs as local routes. But for any rapid transit being able to cover a distance in a consistent time is important. With all of these stops even with dedicated lanes and signal preemption it's still going to take a long time to get along this route. Not even close to being competitive with driving. (I know that very little transit will be competitive with driving but it's still a difference from it being 2x driving to 3x driving.) Not to mention all of the turns. And the lack of legibility for someone to know where it's going and where to catch it. The orange line will give that, the gold line will give that. Even for all of its many many MANY problems the red line will do that too.

As a whole tho. I respect the ideas you had with these routes. I jus differ in philosophy as far as priority's in the implementation of a BRT system in general
It's a tough balancing act with these BRT routes between legibility and speed vs accessibility. My preference is more accessibility, but also having dedicated bus lanes and bus priority signals so some speed is kept as well as better reliability.

A comparison and contrast to the Met Council's Highway 55 BRT study from 2015 vs my proposal:
-my proposal has four more stations outside of downtown than theirs
-my proposal goes as far west as Vicksburg Lane while theirs goes to Pinto Drive in Medina (though I'm very certain they would ultimately decide not to have it go all the way out there)
-outside of downtown, their proposal has eight inline stations and three offline stations
-my proposal has six online stations and nine offline stations
-their estimated end-to-end travel time is 48 minutes off-peak and 52 minutes peak (around twice as long as driving)
-I can't say for certain how long the travel time of my Highway 55 BRT would be but I'm guessing it would also be twice as long as driving

Also compare/contrast the Met Council's I-394 BRT vs my proposal:
-theirs has seven stations outside downtown
-my proposal has 13 stations (Line 2) and 18 stations (Line 3) outside downtown
-four of their stations are offline, two are hybrid (inline/offline), and one is inline
-two of my stations are online and the rest are offline
-their estimated end-to-end travel time is 45 minutes off-peak and 58 minutes peak (pretty much the same as Route 645 between Minneapolis and Wayzata P&R and 2-3 times as long as driving)
-my routes would likely take slightly longer than theirs

For anyone interested here's the Highway 55 BRT study: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... endum.aspx

And here's the highway BRT study that includes their proposal for I-394: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... Final.aspx

Trademark
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Trademark » June 13th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Here's my proposed BRT system for the I-394/Highway 55 Corridor. Similar in design and operation to my proposed BRT routes along the I-494 Corridor except there's more highway running on this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
Running on Laurel Avenue is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense as their isn't a lot on 55 in that area. Great idea!

For the 55 BRT I would probably extend it out to Hy-Vee.

My main problem with these BRT routes is. Legibility and the length of time to get between stops. I think these would be great designs as local routes. But for any rapid transit being able to cover a distance in a consistent time is important. With all of these stops even with dedicated lanes and signal preemption it's still going to take a long time to get along this route. Not even close to being competitive with driving. (I know that very little transit will be competitive with driving but it's still a difference from it being 2x driving to 3x driving.) Not to mention all of the turns. And the lack of legibility for someone to know where it's going and where to catch it. The orange line will give that, the gold line will give that. Even for all of its many many MANY problems the red line will do that too.

As a whole tho. I respect the ideas you had with these routes. I jus differ in philosophy as far as priority's in the implementation of a BRT system in general
It's a tough balancing act with these BRT routes between legibility and speed vs accessibility. My preference is more accessibility, but also having dedicated bus lanes and bus priority signals so some speed is kept as well as better reliability.

A comparison and contrast to the Met Council's Highway 55 BRT study from 2015 vs my proposal:
-my proposal has four more stations outside of downtown than theirs
-my proposal goes as far west as Vicksburg Lane while theirs goes to Pinto Drive in Medina (though I'm very certain they would ultimately decide not to have it go all the way out there)
-outside of downtown, their proposal has eight inline stations and three offline stations
-my proposal has six online stations and nine offline stations
-their estimated end-to-end travel time is 48 minutes off-peak and 52 minutes peak (around twice as long as driving)
-I can't say for certain how long the travel time of my Highway 55 BRT would be but I'm guessing it would also be twice as long as driving

Also compare/contrast the Met Council's I-394 BRT vs my proposal:
-theirs has seven stations outside downtown
-my proposal has 13 stations (Line 2) and 18 stations (Line 3) outside downtown
-four of their stations are offline, two are hybrid (inline/offline), and one is inline
-two of my stations are online and the rest are offline
-their estimated end-to-end travel time is 45 minutes off-peak and 58 minutes peak (pretty much the same as Route 645 between Minneapolis and Wayzata P&R and 2-3 times as long as driving)
-my routes would likely take slightly longer than theirs

For anyone interested here's the Highway 55 BRT study: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... endum.aspx

And here's the highway BRT study that includes their proposal for I-394: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... Final.aspx
The Metro Transits highway BRT study for 394 is terrible like most of their highway BRT studies. You have the infrastructure for hot lanes already and online stations downtown at the ramps already they should jus turn the middle reversable segment into a two way busway and extend it. 58 minutes for offpeak service is horrible.

Exiting the freeway to connect to park and ride ramps as the system commonly proposes isn't the way to do rapid transit.

I get what you mean with not having that many more stops then their proposal. I just still think that their proposal is poorly done. I'd still take your system over theirs. I nitpick only for constructive criticism and healthy discourse. There's not many people in the world to debate twin cities fantasy public transit with lol.


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