Minnesota Transportation Funding (General)

[Trademark]

Here's a decent summary from Henry Pan for the Minnesota Reformer. You are, unfortunately, correct in that something like $5 billion of it is coming from the Trunk Highway fund and will go to roads, but, in addition to the $10M for TCMC rail and $57M for ABRT, there's funding for stuff like Metro Mobility and active transportation.

Buses get 1% of what roads get. This is totally not a problem.

[Korh]

if only the funding for roads could be used for things like highway removals road diets, etc. But that's wishful thinking.
Although I'm willing to bet most of said funding will go to projects outside of the metro maybe including the farthest suburbs, so I'm wondering how bad traffic/induced demand is in greater MN? I haven't actually drove/ridden in a car outside of the cities in years outside of a trip to Duluth a few years ago and a recent trip to Darwin to visit family.

[DanPatchToget]

if only the funding for roads could be used for things like highway removals road diets, etc. But that's wishful thinking.
Although I'm willing to bet most of said funding will go to projects outside of the metro maybe including the farthest suburbs, so I'm wondering how bad traffic/induced demand is in greater MN? I haven't actually drove/ridden in a car outside of the cities in years outside of a trip to Duluth a few years ago and a recent trip to Darwin to visit family.

Going between the Twin Cities and Duluth on I-35 and between Duluth and Grand Marais on Highway 61 in the summer can be a nightmare. Lots of cabin and vacationer traffic, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who live in the Twin Cities have demanded a third lane in each direction on I-35 and a second lane in each direction on Highway 61 so they can get to/from the North Shore faster (until induced demand catches up).

[Korh]

I thought Highway 61 had a second lane up till Two Harbors, I know my brother went to Lutsen for a bike race a few weeks ago and was annoyed a bit with either traffic or some kind of construction that far north.
Speaking of 61 I wonder how many people would try to argue that it should be expanded to better induce "international commerce and travel" between Duluth and Thunder Bay.

[DanPatchToget]

I thought Highway 61 had a second lane up till Two Harbors, I know my brother went to Lutsen for a bike race a few weeks ago and was annoyed a bit with either traffic or some kind of construction that far north.
Speaking of 61 I wonder how many people would try to argue that it should be expanded to better induce "international commerce and travel" between Duluth and Thunder Bay.

Just a little north of where I-35 ends in Duluth it's two lanes, and that two lane segment is for around 3 miles. Then it widens to four lanes, and that segment is around 19 miles long before narrowing again just west of Two Harbors. Between Duluth and Two Harbors there's also Scenic Drive. Despite the long traffic jams every summer people still insist on driving up to the North Shore on Friday and coming back home on Sunday (my family is guilty of this).

[Mdcastle]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

[SurlyLHT]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

They need signs, "This stretch of road courtesy of Minneapolis-St Paul Taxpayers."

I think wasted or overbuilt roads are more likely to be on the edge of the cities. I used to live a few miles from the Anoka/Isanti County boundary and the built a wide nice stretch of University Ave and expected homes to be built. They only got a few homes and a nice dragstrip for locals.

Also wasteful spending is more likely to be spent by local governments who are funneling money from other sources. Lots of those rural roads could just be returned to dirt. The State Highways and major County Rds are the life-blood.

[DanPatchToget]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

Or people could go to any other lake in Minnesota. We're the land of 10,000 lakes after all (more accurately it's 11,842 lakes).

[Korh]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

They need signs, "This stretch of road courtesy of Minneapolis-St Paul Taxpayers."

I think wasted or overbuilt roads are more likely to be on the edge of the cities. I used to live a few miles from the Anoka/Isanti County boundary and the built a wide nice stretch of University Ave and expected homes to be built. They only got a few homes and a nice dragstrip for locals.

Also wasteful spending is more likely to be spent by local governments who are funneling money from other sources. Lots of those rural roads could just be returned to dirt. The State Highways and major County Rds are the life-blood.

I wonder if there has ever been a study going over how many roads can be turned back into dirt/gravel or reduced in size, how much it would cost, and how much it would save in maintenance.

[Mdcastle]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

Or people could go to any other lake in Minnesota. We're the land of 10,000 lakes after all (more accurately it's 11,842 lakes).

it's not like driving I-94 to St. Cloud to the other lakes is any better. In my opinion it's worse.

[SurlyLHT]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

They need signs, "This stretch of road courtesy of Minneapolis-St Paul Taxpayers."

I think wasted or overbuilt roads are more likely to be on the edge of the cities. I used to live a few miles from the Anoka/Isanti County boundary and the built a wide nice stretch of University Ave and expected homes to be built. They only got a few homes and a nice dragstrip for locals.

Also wasteful spending is more likely to be spent by local governments who are funneling money from other sources. Lots of those rural roads could just be returned to dirt. The State Highways and major County Rds are the life-blood.

I wonder if there has ever been a study going over how many roads can be turned back into dirt/gravel or reduced in size, how much it would cost, and how much it would save in maintenance.

Looks like MnDot has a shiny new report from 2-2020 which may speak to at least how to do this.

A Guide to Successfully
Convert Severely
Distressed Paved Roads
to Engineered Unpaved
Roads – Final Report


http://www.dot.state.mn.us/research/rep ... 201942.pdf

Also from MPR and article which has interesting numbers. Gravel roads are more expensive to maintain, but asphalt roads have hidden costs and much higher capital improvement costs.

"Using a weighted average of the above figures, the reclaim/overlay costs are approximately $124,844.90 per mile of paved road. Adding the chip seal costs twice, the estimated overlay cost from the above figures ($99,915) and the reclaim/overlay cost, Baldwin’s paved roads will cost an estimated $232,529.90 per mile every 40 years, or $5,813.25 per mile per year.

That’s about 3 times what it costs to maintain gravel roads in the county."

https://blogs.mprnews.org/ground-level/ ... ved-roads/

[DanPatchToget]

Since over 85% of the state's lane miles are outside the Metro district and most of this money is for routine maintenance, it's a safe bet most of it will go to outstate Minnesota.

I guess driving up to a cabin, resort, lodge, or campground on the North Shore still beats sitting around your city house playing board games even with the traffic both directions.

Or people could go to any other lake in Minnesota. We're the land of 10,000 lakes after all (more accurately it's 11,842 lakes).

it's not like driving I-94 to St. Cloud to the other lakes is any better. In my opinion it's worse.

There's lakes in every direction with plenty of routes to get to them. I used to go to Norway Lake, which is near Willmar, and for most of the route we took Highway 7.