Green Line / Central Corridor construction thread (archive)

[twincitizen]

Well, we could (and should) have zone fares instead of this rush/non-rush nonsense like most other metro systems. The local fares might not change much, but we could have a bigger downtown zone (include Loring & Elliot Park neighborhoods and the remainder of the N. Loop). As for express fares, it is really unfair that someone traveling from CBD to CBD or from Richfield to downtown pays the same fare as someone coming from Lakeville or Anoka. The fare should definitely be higher than $3.00 for travelling outside of the 494/694 loop. Those Park & Ride ramps are not cheap to build at $15,000 per space (not including maintenance) and we ALL pay for that.

[web]

most are drifting to one fare suits all though.........daily passes/monthly passes etc

[FISHMANPET]

Fare zones make a system harder to understand for the riders, especially visitors, and I don't even know how to enforce them on a bus system (Portland did it, but they just got rid of the zones, so no idea how it works).

DC has a different price for each source-destination pair, which is confusing as hell.

[mattaudio]

I agree it is confusing, but when you trust that the fare is a good value then you aren't really concerned with it. I'm in DC a lot and I've never been that concerned with a specific fare even going a couple stops on the metro. But here in my own neighborhood, I don't use the bus as much as I wish because the fares are a rip for short trips.

[FISHMANPET]

The problem isn't "do I think this is a good value" but "how much do I put on my metrocard." On my last trip I ended up putting 15 cents on via a credit card to cover me for my last day, we all have to admit that's pretty stupid.

[MSPtoMKE]

A presentation on the final recommendations for the bus restructuring has been posted on the Met Council website. Here are some highlights:

-Route 94 has gotten a reprieve, it is proposed to run every 30 mins mid day, every 10 mins peak.
-Route 83 has changes to both the north and south end routing. It is proposed to end at Larpenteur and Lexington, via Hamline around Como Park. The south end will have a short stretch on I-35E, in response to residents not wanting bus service on the south end of Lexington, I suppose... It will use a small bus capable of going under the railroad tracks over Lexington near Como Park.
-Route 16 will have a route change just outside downtown St. Paul to serve the Ravoux Hi-Rise.

Here is the presentation, with a map:
http://councilmeetings.metc.state.mn.us ... edPlan.pdf

And a full text description of the changes:
http://councilmeetings.metc.state.mn.us ... ations.pdf

[aguaman]

we already have a zone system, right? downtown zone. so if visitors can figure that one out, then they should be able to figure out if they're in zone 2 or 3, especially if they start their trip there. and you can always just ask the bus driver where the downtown zone ends...

[VAStationDude]

I love the new 16 routing. The residential area along marion gains service to west bound Green Line and downtown saint paul. The Saint Paul College area gets a west bound Green Line connection and the 16 will more than replace the lost 65 service to downtown Saint Paul.

[FISHMANPET]

we already have a zone system, right? downtown zone. so if visitors can figure that one out, then they should be able to figure out if they're in zone 2 or 3, especially if they start their trip there. and you can always just ask the bus driver where the downtown zone ends...

How do you enforce this? The Downtown Zone right now is on the honor system, unless a driver really wants to stop at the edge of downtown and throw someone off the bus. I have no idea how Portland did it.

But again, it doesn't matter, because the world is moving away from zones to flat rates, so I don't know why we think it would be smart when everybody else has looked at it and said it's not.

Now if we've got a problem that multi destination shopping trips are too expensive, then maybe we need a 1 day pass like Portland has. Fare in Portland is $2.50, or a one day pass is $5.

Though really the problem here is that driving is too cheap, and Lancestar2 has some pretty strange ideas of what is and isn't practical.

[mattaudio]

I suggested it earlier in the thread... pay a standard fare getting on the bus/train whether in cash or go-to card, but then if you have a go-to card AND tap it on exit, it deducts something to arrive at the actual fare for the O/D pair. Bonus: more incentive for people to use go-to cards. Challenge: not sure how it would work with metropass.

[FISHMANPET]

None if it matters to me, because I've got an unlimited ride Metropass

[mulad]

It'll be interesting to see what that "small shuttle-style bus" for route 83 turns out to be. I just hope it'll be big enough to feel like a regular bus, like having both front and rear doors (unlike the current route 87, for instance). As much as I dislike seeing routes take any extra turns, circling around Como Park on the west side is a good option since there's actually some population there. I live just south of Como & Hamline, so it would benefit me a lot, but I doubt I'll be living in the same spot by the time routes get reshuffled. There are some fairly big apartments in my area, so a lot of people would probably try the bus if it happens. (And because there's a small cliff in the way, a lot of pedestrian traffic gets funneled up Hamline rather than filtering through the parallel streets.)

Does anyone know if Metro Transit talked to BNSF about when that offending bridge will likely be replaced? The bridge over Raymond Avenue was replaced two or three years ago, the one over Como Avenue in Minneapolis was replaced a year or two ago, and the bridge over Central Avenue in Minneapolis will be replaced soon.

[MSPtoMKE]

In order to fit under the railroad bridge on Lexington, I would assume it would be operated with a Cutaway style small bus, not a 30' full size bus like the 87. It does seem strange to use such a small bus on an urban route. I can't think of another route that primarily serves Minneapolis or St. Paul that uses such a small bus. They are usually reserved for suburban local routes.

One recommendation I made that would have been revenue neutral was to coordinate the 62 with the 3A branch to provide 15 minute service on Rice as far north as Maryland Ave. They are proposing moving the 3 to depart St. Paul on Minnesota St., while I believe the 62 will be on Wabasha, since it will be crossing the Wabasha bridge taking over the former south branch of the 67. Looks like they won't be coordinated.

I do like the reroute of the 16, since it will no longer be used much by people looking for a fast journey, and it will better link Marion St. And St. Paul College with downtown and the green line.

I also think the compromise to keep the 94 mid day on weekdays is reasonable, although with 30 minute frequencies it may not be as useful as it is now, and time savings in comparison with the Green Line could be eaten up by waiting.

[LRV Op Dude]

We are getting off topic about fares.

[UptownSport]

Drove from Rice to across Washington Ave Bridge.
Was surprised, after reading updates and % complete, how much remained; lotsa dirt, West of 280 and East of Lexington.

Can figure why Washington avenue bridge even remained open, only entrance was in middle of campus

[aguaman]

we already have a zone system, right? downtown zone. so if visitors can figure that one out, then they should be able to figure out if they're in zone 2 or 3, especially if they start their trip there. and you can always just ask the bus driver where the downtown zone ends...

How do you enforce this? The Downtown Zone right now is on the honor system, unless a driver really wants to stop at the edge of downtown and throw someone off the bus. I have no idea how Portland did it.

But again, it doesn't matter, because the world is moving away from zones to flat rates, so I don't know why we think it would be smart when everybody else has looked at it and said it's not.

Now if we've got a problem that multi destination shopping trips are too expensive, then maybe we need a 1 day pass like Portland has. Fare in Portland is $2.50, or a one day pass is $5.

Though really the problem here is that driving is too cheap, and Lancestar2 has some pretty strange ideas of what is and isn't practical.

fare on lrt is on the honor system so you buy a ticket for the zone you travel from and to. enforcement is done with irregular patrolling. it is the most fair method for fare collection because everyone is paying for their use of the system. in a flat fare system, short trips are subsidizing the long trips. i'm not comfortable with inner city passengers helping the suburbanites pay their way on the system. that is very unfair. but i think the worst system is what we have here, where you pay a premium to travel by transit when the (highway) transportation system most needs you on public transit. if any time-based method is to be implemented, it should be the opposite as what we have: peak hour trips on public transit should be cheaper or free in order to provide an incentive to use the bus/train to reduce peak hour SOV use.

[web]

yep msp has had peak hour fares forever while most other systems nationwide never had this. Portland basically raised its rates when it scrapped the zone and free dt zone. they were still at like 1.40 first zone until mid summer

[FISHMANPET]

we already have a zone system, right? downtown zone. so if visitors can figure that one out, then they should be able to figure out if they're in zone 2 or 3, especially if they start their trip there. and you can always just ask the bus driver where the downtown zone ends...

How do you enforce this? The Downtown Zone right now is on the honor system, unless a driver really wants to stop at the edge of downtown and throw someone off the bus. I have no idea how Portland did it.

But again, it doesn't matter, because the world is moving away from zones to flat rates, so I don't know why we think it would be smart when everybody else has looked at it and said it's not.

Now if we've got a problem that multi destination shopping trips are too expensive, then maybe we need a 1 day pass like Portland has. Fare in Portland is $2.50, or a one day pass is $5.

Though really the problem here is that driving is too cheap, and Lancestar2 has some pretty strange ideas of what is and isn't practical.

fare on lrt is on the honor system so you buy a ticket for the zone you travel from and to. enforcement is done with irregular patrolling. it is the most fair method for fare collection because everyone is paying for their use of the system. in a flat fare system, short trips are subsidizing the long trips. i'm not comfortable with inner city passengers helping the suburbanites pay their way on the system. that is very unfair. but i think the worst system is what we have here, where you pay a premium to travel by transit when the (highway) transportation system most needs you on public transit. if any time-based method is to be implemented, it should be the opposite as what we have: peak hour trips on public transit should be cheaper or free in order to provide an incentive to use the bus/train to reduce peak hour SOV use.

How do you enforce fare zones on a bus.

[ECtransplant]

How do you enforce fare zones on a bus.

Require a go-to card and require swiping at entry and exit. If you don't swipe upon exiting, you get charged the max fare for that route from your origin.

Not necessarily advocating that, but that's how I'd imagine zone fares working for buses.

[Tom H.]

The concrete roadway has been poured on the Washington Transit Mall as far west as Church Street. The only remaining unpaved portion is from Church St to the Washington bridge. The East Bank station is close to being structurally complete, and the station signs went in earlier this week. Rail has yet to be installed from the East Bank station to the Washington bridge.

On a related note, does anyone know how buses will operate on the transit mall? Many of the materials label the guideway as 'LRT/bus' lanes, with the side lanes for bikes and emergency vehicles. Will the buses ride on the tracks? Will they have to pull over into the side lanes to drop off at stops? Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.