E Line Arterial BRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
seanrichardryan
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby seanrichardryan » May 14th, 2021, 7:59 am

Of note, many people also park in the neighborhood and walk or bike downtown. E line or not, there will always be a 'downtown zone' stop at that corner.
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twincitizen
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby twincitizen » May 14th, 2021, 8:00 am

because of the one way pairs, the stops westbound aren't as close as you might think.
This. In the initial survey Metro Transit sent out, I argued for the addition of a stop at 2nd St, at least in the westbound direction (on 1st Ave NE). Two separate stops probably are not necessary for the eastbound direction. But I don't think people who want to board a westbound bus on 1st Ave should have to backtrack all the way to 4th/Central. That probably hurts ridership.

If there's only going to be a single westbound stop, I think you'd have to move it up to 4th St between Hennepin and 1st Ave, to better center it in that area's walkshed. But with lots of housing going in at Expo, it's probably just better to serve the neighborhood with two westbound stops. One at Aveda, and the other at 1st Ave & 2nd St (which also connects with Route 11).

Silophant
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Silophant » June 25th, 2021, 12:00 pm

The 2021 transportation bill includes $57.5M for arterial BRT, which fills the remaining $40M to fund the E Line and helps fund the F Line as well. According to the MT aBRT update presented to the Met Council, they're now aiming for operations in 2025, which I think is because the Hennepin Ave reconstruction was delayed until 2024.
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twincitizen
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby twincitizen » June 25th, 2021, 1:10 pm

I’m really impressed by the level transit funding secured in two consecutive sessions, considering the GOP Senate. Seems like the DFL couldn’t get anything through during the Dayton admin, whether during the 2 years Dems had a trifecta (‘13-14) or after the House flipped to GOP, starting MN’s ongoing run of divided government since 2015. $55MM in the last bonding bill and now this the very next year.

thespeedmccool
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby thespeedmccool » June 25th, 2021, 3:13 pm

Honestly, I think Republicans don't even really know what they're funding. They frame literally all transportation options with relation to the advantages of cars, so anything communal or fixed is anywhere from "a fine option for the poors" to "Marxism on rails" in their eyes.

They are CONSTANTLY complaining about "guideways" (i.e. fixed transit) because, in their simplistic view, trains and dedicated BRT are inflexible and therefore not worth the money. If they knew that aBRT routes are less flexible (compared to standard bus routes) thanks to their added infrastructure, they would probably refuse to fund them.

Essentially, the Senate GOP thinks of aBRT as "Local Bus+" while DFLers think of it to be closer to "Light Rail on Wheels" - a classic compromise.

Trademark
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Trademark » June 25th, 2021, 4:49 pm

Honestly, I think Republicans don't even really know what they're funding. They frame literally all transportation options with relation to the advantages of cars, so anything communal or fixed is anywhere from "a fine option for the poors" to "Marxism on rails" in their eyes.

They are CONSTANTLY complaining about "guideways" (i.e. fixed transit) because, in their simplistic view, trains and dedicated BRT are inflexible and therefore not worth the money. If they knew that aBRT routes are less flexible (compared to standard bus routes) thanks to their added infrastructure, they would probably refuse to fund them.

Essentially, the Senate GOP thinks of aBRT as "Local Bus+" while DFLers think of it to be closer to "Light Rail on Wheels" - a classic compromise.
Let's be honest tho. aBRT is basically local bus+

DanPatchToget
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby DanPatchToget » June 25th, 2021, 6:17 pm

Honestly, I think Republicans don't even really know what they're funding. They frame literally all transportation options with relation to the advantages of cars, so anything communal or fixed is anywhere from "a fine option for the poors" to "Marxism on rails" in their eyes.

They are CONSTANTLY complaining about "guideways" (i.e. fixed transit) because, in their simplistic view, trains and dedicated BRT are inflexible and therefore not worth the money. If they knew that aBRT routes are less flexible (compared to standard bus routes) thanks to their added infrastructure, they would probably refuse to fund them.

Essentially, the Senate GOP thinks of aBRT as "Local Bus+" while DFLers think of it to be closer to "Light Rail on Wheels" - a classic compromise.
Or if they're like Randal O'Toole they think it's just buying a bunch of fancy buses with a fancy paint scheme and running them at high frequency. If it flops then repaint them in regular colors and put them on other routes. :roll:

talindsay
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby talindsay » June 28th, 2021, 9:19 am

I do like the upgrades the "aBRT" service provides on the A Line, but if anybody thinks it's "Light Rail on Wheels" they're delusional. It's the baseline for good, reliable bus service and nothing more.

gopherfan
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby gopherfan » September 21st, 2021, 9:02 am

The E Line draft corridor plan has been released and open for comment.
https://www.metrotransit.org/e-line-corridor-plan

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Tiller
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Tiller » September 21st, 2021, 2:49 pm

The E Line draft corridor plan has been released and open for comment.
https://www.metrotransit.org/e-line-corridor-plan
From the draft plan on page 18:
"Except in limited cases near the end of the line, all arterial BRT stations are equipped with shelters, as described in Section I."

Not all of the stops will have shelters?

🧐

Silophant
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Silophant » September 21st, 2021, 3:36 pm

I suspect that refers to end-of-the-line stations where no one will be waiting to board, because the bus doesn't go anywhere except its layover location after that. So, the Berry St station, for the E Line.
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alexschief
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby alexschief » September 22nd, 2021, 10:04 am

While I still wish there was a bit more pressure placed on stop consolidation, it's a really nice plan. This is a tricky route with so many stakeholders and so many separate contributing projects, I'd love to see a schedule graphic for the project. It'll be interesting to see the pieces come into place over time. Would've loved to have this bus back when I lived near Prospect Park and my grandfather was at Southdale Hospital.

Silophant
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Silophant » September 22nd, 2021, 1:03 pm

Yeah. Too late to do much about it now, but six stations between the river and the Basilica is kind of absurd.
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Oreos&Milk
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Oreos&Milk » September 27th, 2021, 2:18 am

I do like the upgrades the "aBRT" service provides on the A Line, but if anybody thinks it's "Light Rail on Wheels" they're delusional. It's the baseline for good, reliable bus service and nothing more.
Dr. Delusional here, hello.

Completely disagree for the record. Having a better kept schedule, obvious stations ( stops ) and a line that limits twists and turns major difference.

To often busses run infrequent, they branch off making it impossible to understand fully the bus options or are so infrequent that it’s not worth even using the system.

It’s completely just like the LRT only difference is less capacity at stations and on busses. I love the A line it makes transit simple and uncomplicated

It’s just like LRT but on wheels! Maybe less ROW during rush hour but I typically don’t ride during those times so beyond that I’m not sure what is the difference.

Trademark
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Trademark » September 27th, 2021, 7:56 am

I do like the upgrades the "aBRT" service provides on the A Line, but if anybody thinks it's "Light Rail on Wheels" they're delusional. It's the baseline for good, reliable bus service and nothing more.
Dr. Delusional here, hello.

Completely disagree for the record. Having a better kept schedule, obvious stations ( stops ) and a line that limits twists and turns major difference.

To often busses run infrequent, they branch off making it impossible to understand fully the bus options or are so infrequent that it’s not worth even using the system.

It’s completely just like the LRT only difference is less capacity at stations and on busses. I love the A line it makes transit simple and uncomplicated

It’s just like LRT but on wheels! Maybe less ROW during rush hour but I typically don’t ride during those times so beyond that I’m not sure what is the difference.
It's more of a streetcar on wheels

Mdcastle
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Mdcastle » September 27th, 2021, 8:13 am

If it has steel wheels and runs on track, it's light rail. If it has rubber tires, it's nothing but a bus no what color you paint it or what you say it is and brand it as.

Trademark
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Trademark » September 27th, 2021, 10:52 am

If it has steel wheels and runs on track, it's light rail. If it has rubber tires, it's nothing but a bus no what color you paint it or what you say it is and brand it as.
For the non regular transit rider yes.

For the regular transit rider I expect that lines such as the orange, gold, and purple lines will function the same as a train. But the aBRT lines while preferable to regular local buses. Do not have the dedicated lanes to be light rail on wheels.

tmart
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby tmart » September 27th, 2021, 11:27 am

If it has steel wheels and runs on track, it's light rail. If it has rubber tires, it's nothing but a bus no what color you paint it or what you say it is and brand it as.
This is where my inner pedant wants to post pictures of the Montreal and Paris subways, both of which use rubber tires :)

Transit modes can be blurry and I think it's best to imagine a spectrum. On one end you have stuff like local buses with meandering routes, no fare prepayment, bad frequencies, etc; on the opposite end you have fully grade-separated automated subways with trains every two minutes. Everything in between is just varying levels of amenities and transit advantages.

aBRT adds some really great amenities that it shares with LRT: direct routes, stop consolidation, high navigability, higher frequency, nice shelters, fare prepayment, all-door boarding, etc. It doesn't add the higher capacity associated with rail, the dedicated lanes typical of BRT/LRT, or the grade separation of a subway, among other things. That puts it somewhere in between "bus" and "light rail."

I don't mean to suggest that the right choice is always to build a subway because it has more amenities and advantages. aBRT scales well; it can be built out much cheaper and faster than those other modes. Not every route has the ridership potential to justify spending billions. But I also think it's wrong to say it's equivalent to, or a substitute for, options like trams, LRT, BRT, or subways.

Trademark
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Trademark » September 27th, 2021, 1:55 pm

If it has steel wheels and runs on track, it's light rail. If it has rubber tires, it's nothing but a bus no what color you paint it or what you say it is and brand it as.
This is where my inner pedant wants to post pictures of the Montreal and Paris subways, both of which use rubber tires :)

Transit modes can be blurry and I think it's best to imagine a spectrum. On one end you have stuff like local buses with meandering routes, no fare prepayment, bad frequencies, etc; on the opposite end you have fully grade-separated automated subways with trains every two minutes. Everything in between is just varying levels of amenities and transit advantages.

aBRT adds some really great amenities that it shares with LRT: direct routes, stop consolidation, high navigability, higher frequency, nice shelters, fare prepayment, all-door boarding, etc. It doesn't add the higher capacity associated with rail, the dedicated lanes typical of BRT/LRT, or the grade separation of a subway, among other things. That puts it somewhere in between "bus" and "light rail."

I don't mean to suggest that the right choice is always to build a subway because it has more amenities and advantages. aBRT scales well; it can be built out much cheaper and faster than those other modes. Not every route has the ridership potential to justify spending billions. But I also think it's wrong to say it's equivalent to, or a substitute for, options like trams, LRT, BRT, or subways.
I love aBRT dont get me wrong. But I also think that just because we put an aBRT line somewhere like Central shouldn't mean we don't still look to try and put something like a light rail there in the future. Or at the very least dedicated lanes from 694 south to downtown.

A non dedicated lane can only give you so much benefit. And calling it light rail on wheels only makes the general public roll their eyes at us when they realize that it's just a simple limited stop route with a few extra features.

alexschief
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Re: E Line Arterial BRT

Postby alexschief » September 30th, 2021, 11:35 am

I'm sure this has been discussed so far, but does this line go far enough?

There is a substantial collection of multi-family buildings across 70th Street in the Centennial Lakes area, and this line ends short of that. The Southdale Transit Center has a certain logic as a terminus, but I suspect you could easily justify two further stations; one around the Nine Mile Creek Regional Trail, and a new terminus at 76th Street. This area seems like it might be too busy to pass up simply because you're locked into a certain transit center.


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