F Line BRT (Central-University)

[Silophant]

Now that funding is coming in for this, I think it's time to give it its own thread for future reference.

The Metro F Line will replace the University Ave branch of the Route 10, providing 10-minute service from downtown Minneapolis to Northtown Mall via Central Ave south of 694, and University Ave north of 694. The Network Next evaluation estimated that it would cost $81.3M (it's long!). As of June 2021, it's gotten $25M of federal grants, and the 2021 state transportation bill allotted $57.5M to aBRT, with the E Line being funded fully (approx. $40M) and the F Line getting the ~$17.5M left over. The bill also included language allowing the City's weird streetcar TIF fund that was started in 2013 to be used for aBRT as well, so that will presumably fill in a lot of the remaining gap. I'd like to think that Anoka County would also throw in some money for a line that will be 60% in their boundaries, but, y'know. Anoka County.

I'm wondering if the downtown routing is locked in, or if, with the (presumed) post-pandemic lessening of rush hour express buses, they could move it from Nicollet to the Orange Line Marq2 stops. I can't imagine that we'll stop kneecapping our "transit mall" by regularly detouring the buses for farmer's markets and sports festivals (and, indeed, I'd love having more of those things on Nicollet if it didn't detour most of our highest-use bus routes), and with off-board payment, the F Line would have to detour to the Orange Line stations on Marq2 anyway, so why not just always have them there? As a bonus, they could even probably get up to 20mph between stops, instead of permanently idling at 10mph because of one crash, decades ago.

[Trademark]

Now that funding is coming in for this, I think it's time to give it its own thread for future reference.

The Metro F Line will replace the University Ave branch of the Route 10, providing 10-minute service from downtown Minneapolis to Northtown Mall via Central Ave south of 694, and University Ave north of 694. The Network Next evaluation estimated that it would cost $81.3M (it's long!). As of June 2021, it's gotten $25M of federal grants, and the 2021 state transportation bill allotted $57.5M to aBRT, with the E Line being funded fully (approx. $40M) and the F Line getting the ~$17.5M left over. The bill also included language allowing the City's weird streetcar TIF fund that was started in 2013 to be used for aBRT as well, so that will presumably fill in a lot of the remaining gap. I'd like to think that Anoka County would also throw in some money for a line that will be 60% in their boundaries, but, y'know. Anoka County.

I'm wondering if the downtown routing is locked in, or if, with the (presumed) post-pandemic lessening of rush hour express buses, they could move it from Nicollet to the Orange Line Marq2 stops. I can't imagine that we'll stop kneecapping our "transit mall" by regularly detouring the buses for farmer's markets and sports festivals (and, indeed, I'd love having more of those things on Nicollet if it didn't detour most of our highest-use bus routes), and with off-board payment, the F Line would have to detour to the Orange Line stations on Marq2 anyway, so why not just always have them there? As a bonus, they could even probably get up to 20mph between stops, instead of permanently idling at 10mph because of one crash, decades ago.

Marq2 is a great idea! If they could figure out the signal timing between 3rd and marq2 to allow a seamless transition between the roads. That would be key too. And it would still allow a push to extend it to Nicollet via grant and push it down to lake street to double the frequency there

[Tcmetro]

The 10 used to run down Nicollet and Grand, so I think having the F Line go to Lake and whatever the Nicollet line up to Lowry is a good idea to provide good service on the core portion of the routes.

[alexschief]

Certainly hope that the alignment for this is up for revision like the B and E Lines. The segment of this line from 53rd Ave to the Northtown Mall is expensive (over 5 miles!) and extremely low ridership. With the streetcar fund now cracked open for aBRT, this line could be completely funded tomorrow if that northern section were exchanged for Nicollet. That would trade a low ridership section for a high ridership section and an unfunded section for a fully-funded section. It otherwise wouldn't be appropriate to spend money collected primarily Nicollet-adjacent businesses and steer it to primarily Central-focused line (let alone subsidize a route in Anoka County).

Metro Transit mostly seems to recognize the value of lines that run through the CBD. It's a bit strange to think of the downtown as a barrier or a chokepoint, but it is. It is congested at peak hours and it is a psychological divider in the city where neighborhoods are defined in their relationship to it. The most successful transit is transit that cuts across barriers and through chokepoints with priority, and it's important to have aBRT lines that connect the city on both sides of the CBD. The D and E Lines will do this, as will the G Line. But the C Line and unfortunately the F Line would not have that advantage. The C Line is easily extended, but the F Line, due to the length of that northern section, won't be easy to extend in the future. So why not solve the issue right now? The northern section of the F Line is suitable for local bus service at the moment, and in the future could form part of an aBRT line on University NE.

[Tcmetro]

I checked a while ago and the Northtown stop is the single busiest on the 10 line outside of the downtown area, so it's not like the buses are going to be empty running all day.

[Trademark]

Certainly hope that the alignment for this is up for revision like the B and E Lines. The segment of this line from 53rd Ave to the Northtown Mall is expensive (over 5 miles!) and extremely low ridership. With the streetcar fund now cracked open for aBRT, this line could be completely funded tomorrow if that northern section were exchanged for Nicollet. That would trade a low ridership section for a high ridership section and an unfunded section for a fully-funded section. It otherwise wouldn't be appropriate to spend money collected primarily Nicollet-adjacent businesses and steer it to primarily Central-focused line (let alone subsidize a route in Anoka County).

Metro Transit mostly seems to recognize the value of lines that run through the CBD. It's a bit strange to think of the downtown as a barrier or a chokepoint, but it is. It is congested at peak hours and it is a psychological divider in the city where neighborhoods are defined in their relationship to it. The most successful transit is transit that cuts across barriers and through chokepoints with priority, and it's important to have aBRT lines that connect the city on both sides of the CBD. The D and E Lines will do this, as will the G Line. But the C Line and unfortunately the F Line would not have that advantage. The C Line is easily extended, but the F Line, due to the length of that northern section, won't be easy to extend in the future. So why not solve the issue right now? The northern section of the F Line is suitable for local bus service at the moment, and in the future could form part of an aBRT line on University NE.

Also just quickly for reference I checked the runtime on Google maps for route 10 and route 5. Route 10 takes 55 minutes. Route 5 takes 81 minutes. This should mean that route 10 should be easily able to be extended to Lake street. And stay underneath the run length of the future D Line. Without having to cut access to a major job center that is Northtown Mall.

If we were putting light rail on Central. (Which I think would be justified). It would make sense to cut the line in Columbia Heights but aBRT's costs are not that high for the line to not be extended north.

[DanPatchToget]

Certainly hope that the alignment for this is up for revision like the B and E Lines. The segment of this line from 53rd Ave to the Northtown Mall is expensive (over 5 miles!) and extremely low ridership. With the streetcar fund now cracked open for aBRT, this line could be completely funded tomorrow if that northern section were exchanged for Nicollet. That would trade a low ridership section for a high ridership section and an unfunded section for a fully-funded section. It otherwise wouldn't be appropriate to spend money collected primarily Nicollet-adjacent businesses and steer it to primarily Central-focused line (let alone subsidize a route in Anoka County).

Metro Transit mostly seems to recognize the value of lines that run through the CBD. It's a bit strange to think of the downtown as a barrier or a chokepoint, but it is. It is congested at peak hours and it is a psychological divider in the city where neighborhoods are defined in their relationship to it. The most successful transit is transit that cuts across barriers and through chokepoints with priority, and it's important to have aBRT lines that connect the city on both sides of the CBD. The D and E Lines will do this, as will the G Line. But the C Line and unfortunately the F Line would not have that advantage. The C Line is easily extended, but the F Line, due to the length of that northern section, won't be easy to extend in the future. So why not solve the issue right now? The northern section of the F Line is suitable for local bus service at the moment, and in the future could form part of an aBRT line on University NE.

Or we keep it all the way to Northtown Mall and include an extension south to Nicollet & Lake. Originally the B Line was planned to only go as far east as Snelling & University, and the E Line was originally planned to stop in downtown, but both of those were rightfully extended. The same could certainly be done for the F Line.

[Trademark]

Certainly hope that the alignment for this is up for revision like the B and E Lines. The segment of this line from 53rd Ave to the Northtown Mall is expensive (over 5 miles!) and extremely low ridership. With the streetcar fund now cracked open for aBRT, this line could be completely funded tomorrow if that northern section were exchanged for Nicollet. That would trade a low ridership section for a high ridership section and an unfunded section for a fully-funded section. It otherwise wouldn't be appropriate to spend money collected primarily Nicollet-adjacent businesses and steer it to primarily Central-focused line (let alone subsidize a route in Anoka County).

Metro Transit mostly seems to recognize the value of lines that run through the CBD. It's a bit strange to think of the downtown as a barrier or a chokepoint, but it is. It is congested at peak hours and it is a psychological divider in the city where neighborhoods are defined in their relationship to it. The most successful transit is transit that cuts across barriers and through chokepoints with priority, and it's important to have aBRT lines that connect the city on both sides of the CBD. The D and E Lines will do this, as will the G Line. But the C Line and unfortunately the F Line would not have that advantage. The C Line is easily extended, but the F Line, due to the length of that northern section, won't be easy to extend in the future. So why not solve the issue right now? The northern section of the F Line is suitable for local bus service at the moment, and in the future could form part of an aBRT line on University NE.

Or we keep it all the way to Northtown Mall and include an extension south to Nicollet & Lake. Originally the B Line was planned to only go as far east as Snelling & University, and the E Line was originally planned to stop in downtown, but both of those were rightfully extended. The same could certainly be done for the F Line.

Exactly. I woulld love to see it end at the lake street orange line station. And then the 18 would also have immediate benefits.

[alexschief]

I'd be happy for it to be extended to Lake in the near-term, but ultimately when the K-Mart site is opened up, you'll want to extend it further down Nicollet, which still has plenty more density than the planned northern segment of the F Line.

I checked a while ago and the Northtown stop is the single busiest on the 10 line outside of the downtown area, so it's not like the buses are going to be empty running all day.

Not a fair comparison to pit a transit center terminus against any single local bus stop. If you compare corridors, the 5 mile stretch north of 53rd Ave is by far the lowest ridership segment of the #10 and would be far lower than any equivalent stretch of the #18. It deserves good local service and an eventual University Ave aBRT route, (which I've argued for here!) but it shouldn't make a much stronger Nicollet-Central aBRT route infeasible. ~600 riders per day doesn't justify planning aBRT 5 miles longer than necessary.

[MNdible]

Or we could accept that maybe it makes sense to keep the lines separate. I know combining these lines is a greatest hit on the forum, though, so carry on.

[alexschief]

Or we could accept that maybe it makes sense to keep the lines separate. I know combining these lines is a greatest hit on the forum, though, so carry on.

If you scroll up a bit, you'll find the post where I explained why I thought that running aBRT lines through the downtown was smart because downtowns are natural chokepoints and transit thrives in those situations.

There's not necessarily an empirically provable right answer (at least not in a world where we can do an A/B test) so you're free to argue a different view for what "makes sense." But at least you might want to acknowledge that this opinion has an argument behind it and isn't just something people support for aesthetic reasons.

[twincitizen]

I think Alex is also ignoring the importance of serving Anoka County (and Fridley, Spring Lake Park and Blaine), in the sense of securing political support from around the region. Yes, of course Nicollet should be a higher priority based purely on ridership. But when you're a suburban legislator (particularly if you represent a part of the metro not yet well served by the Metro system), the map starts to look a little imbalanced in the south Minneapolis area, with the B, D, E, and Orange Lines. Of course we transit nerds understand that's how it should be...that's where the riders are). While it's no way to plan/build a transit system, there is absolutely a political element of "geographic parity" or whatever you want to call it, that is going to be expected by suburban legislators and the city/county officials that lobby them. Running the F Line way up into Blaine (along with the G/H Lines adding long spines in the east metro) is just good politics if the next several lines after that will further concentrate the south Minneapolis / Richfield portion of the map, with the 18 and 4 being the most likely candidates for aBRT post-2025. It would have been difficult, from a political standpoint, to ask for more funding in south Minneapolis before extending a single route into the north or east metro.

[DanPatchToget]

No matter how the timeline and configuration of aBRT routes is chosen there will always be people saying "why don't we put it here first instead of there?" and "why is it going all the way there when it should just go here?"

How many people were surprised that Snelling was chosen for the first aBRT route? There must've been a lot of people saying the first aBRT route should go on Lake, Nicollet-Central, West 7th, etc.

[thespeedmccool]

I think Alex is also ignoring the importance of serving Anoka County (and Fridley, Spring Lake Park and Blaine), in the sense of securing political support from around the region.

This is so important. Transit cannot become something "the others" need. I respect the need to serve South Minneapolis, but if transit becomes "just a Minneapolis thing," funding will dry up quicker than you can say "Senate GOP."

[Trademark]

I think Alex is also ignoring the importance of serving Anoka County (and Fridley, Spring Lake Park and Blaine), in the sense of securing political support from around the region.

This is so important. Transit cannot become something "the others" need. I respect the need to serve South Minneapolis, but if transit becomes "just a Minneapolis thing," funding will dry up quicker than you can say "Senate GOP."

Also with increased gentrification. We need to start addressing suburban transit. Its where a lot of good jobs are and increasingly more low income people live that way.

[Trademark]

I'd be happy for it to be extended to Lake in the near-term, but ultimately when the K-Mart site is opened up, you'll want to extend it further down Nicollet, which still has plenty more density than the planned northern segment of the F Line.

I checked a while ago and the Northtown stop is the single busiest on the 10 line outside of the downtown area, so it's not like the buses are going to be empty running all day.

Not a fair comparison to pit a transit center terminus against any single local bus stop. If you compare corridors, the 5 mile stretch north of 53rd Ave is by far the lowest ridership segment of the #10 and would be far lower than any equivalent stretch of the #18. It deserves good local service and an eventual University Ave aBRT route, (which I've argued for here!) but it shouldn't make a much stronger Nicollet-Central aBRT route infeasible. ~600 riders per day doesn't justify planning aBRT 5 miles longer than necessary.

That's why the argument of overlapping service with the F Line running to lake and the nicollet line running to lowry makes so much sense too. We can still reach bloomington and fridley and connect people to quality transit out there. While still having increased frequency in the core areas.

And the transfer station argument doesnt really make much sense. Why don't we want transit to go to where people can transfer to plenty of other routes that will take them to their destination or northtown which is a big destination on its own.

Otherwise we're forcing a parallel transfer. So people would have to take the aBRT to probably columbia heights transit station then transfer to continue going north then transfer again at northtown to get to their final destination. That doesn't make sense.

[alexschief]

The transfer issue is extremely easy to solve, just inaugurate a Northtown to Downtown express service. It may already be justified.

Folks, I'm not saying that Anoka County shouldn't get transit. I'm not even saying it shouldn't get aBRT (I think a line on University Ave NE and Cleveland makes sense). But prioritizing Anoka County over a place with high ridership in the sixth aBRT line is a bit of a stretch. Metro Transit has already built an extremely expensive and poorly patronized commuter rail line that predominantly serves Anoka County.

I understand the geographic and political argument for spreading the wealth around. But that argument is weak! The single best way to justify future transit spending is to plan, build, and operate transit lines that are successful. If you can show that the money is being well spent, you will get more money. If you can show that the money is not being well spent, you will not.

Northstar is actually a good example of this. Has Northstar helped or hurt the cause of transit in the Twin Cities? Has the Red Line helped or hurt the cause of transit in the Twin Cities? Are Anoka and Dakota Counties now stalwart transit supporters because of these investments in their communities?

This doesn't mean that you cannot factor in a political argument. A lot of transit in St. Paul is justified on the grounds of east/west regional balance. But it's defensible, because despite being smaller than Minneapolis, St. Paul is still a place where high frequency, high capacity transit can be successful. I don’t mind letting political considerations affect the order of projects. But I don’t like letting political considerations affect the quality of projects. To take the point to an absurd end, it would be fine to look into BRT to Washington County and bump it up the priority chain. But would it make sense to build LRT from Stillwater to Afton because you want Washington County to support transit? Of course not.

All of these projects are trade-offs to some degree. There are always competing interests, and geography and politics are two of them. But let's compare like with like. These projects still need to stand on their own merits as transit projects, and I think a Central-Nicollet aBRT is far superior to a University-Central aBRT in terms of utility to riders and ridership overall, and that ought to outweigh how many legislative districts it touches.

[tmart]

I understand the geographic and political argument for spreading the wealth around. But that argument is weak! The single best way to justify future transit spending is to plan, build, and operate transit lines that are successful. If you can show that the money is being well spent, you will get more money. If you can show that the money is not being well spent, you will not.

Northstar is actually a good example of this. Has Northstar helped or hurt the cause of transit in the Twin Cities? Has the Red Line helped or hurt the cause of transit in the Twin Cities? Are Anoka and Dakota Counties now stalwart transit supporters because of these investments in their communities?

Yeah, these are my sentiments as well. It's much easier to justify expanding a high-performing transit network than a poor-performing one. Northstar not only failed to get exurban legislators onboard with transit; it basically hit the brakes on any regional/commuter rail projects in the state for a generation.

I'd also add that a high-frequency network in the city is a prerequisite for effective transit from the suburbs. Spoke lines only make sense if you can get to your destination inside the hub, and more destinations are accessible when you have lots of easy transfers with short headways. (Granted, this is a stronger argument for more east-west running lines than for a Nicollet-Central line, from Anoka's perspective.)

[Tiller]

North Star's biggest flaw is poor frequency, not that it extended out too far from the core. This example doesn't really apply to this portion of the F Line. If there was a bus route with the frequency of the north star line, it would suck too, even if it was in the heart of Minneapolis.

Northtown Transit Center is a natural end point for a high frequency line like this, and having strong transit connections to these transit centers is crucial for improving mode share and getting local governments to upzone more near these transit centers and the transit lines that serve them.

[DanPatchToget]

The transfer issue is extremely easy to solve, just inaugurate a Northtown to Downtown express service. It may already be justified.

There's already the 852. While not express it is limited-stop from downtown to Northtown and runs hourly.