Lyndale 4-3 Conversion and Bryant Avenue Reconstruction

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4092
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Lyndale 4-3 Conversion and Bryant Avenue Reconstruction

Postby seanrichardryan » July 7th, 2021, 11:25 am

Buses to Lyndale and 1-way for cars recommended by Mpls PW for Bryant Ave reconstruction.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

Trademark
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 642
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Trademark » July 7th, 2021, 11:39 am

Buses to Lyndale and 1-way for cars recommended by Mpls PW for Bryant Ave reconstruction.
One way southbound, or northbound? And will there be another one way pair with it?

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4092
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » July 7th, 2021, 11:47 am

Both! A converging concept with NB one-way from 50th to 46th and SB one-way from Lake-46th.

Meeting on July 13- https://www.minneapolismn.gov/governmen ... struction/
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4092
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » July 7th, 2021, 11:51 am

Our Streets also announcing that Hennepin County has committed to a 4-3 conversion for Lyndale Ave S. No details or timeline... but great! https://twitter.com/OurStreetsMpls/stat ... 9727336452
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

scottiem
City Center
Posts: 39
Joined: January 15th, 2015, 4:17 pm

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby scottiem » July 7th, 2021, 1:08 pm

Does anyone happen to know the rationale for making the one-lane Bryant Ave NB to 46th and SB to 46th?

I love the Bryant concept overall with the raised protected bikeway, reduced parking, pinched intersection crossings, and new boulevards, but I don't know why they'd choose a two-directional one way street. I'd personally also remove the bus lanes from 38th-36th and add-in zebra crossing markers for the remaining streets below 36th St.

LakeCharles
Foshay Tower
Posts: 898
Joined: January 16th, 2014, 8:34 am
Location: Kingfield

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby LakeCharles » July 7th, 2021, 2:50 pm

Does anyone happen to know the rationale for making the one-lane Bryant Ave NB to 46th and SB to 46th?
Two things I know of:

Aldrich is one-way SB south of 49th St, so making Bryant NB on that bit makes sense.

They also want to have the buses for Barton pickup/drop off going SB so the kids don't have to cross the street.

Also not having Bryant be continuous across the city makes it undesirable for long-distance driving, which is a good side-effect.

Trademark
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 642
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Trademark » July 7th, 2021, 4:18 pm

Our Streets also announcing that Hennepin County has committed to a 4-3 conversion for Lyndale Ave S. No details or timeline... but great! https://twitter.com/OurStreetsMpls/stat ... 9727336452
I would have rather seen bus lanes on lyndale.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4092
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » July 7th, 2021, 4:57 pm

A 4-3 is an immediate change with paint to make Lyndale safer. I'm sure an actual construction project would consider transit & bike priorities etc.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

Trademark
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 642
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Trademark » July 7th, 2021, 5:03 pm

A 4-3 is an immediate change with paint to make Lyndale safer. I'm sure an actual construction project would consider transit & bike priorities etc.
The same could be said for red painted lanes as well as it also encourages transit use in the corridor.

HKM
Metrodome
Posts: 60
Joined: March 6th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HKM » July 8th, 2021, 8:26 am

I would have rather seen bus lanes on lyndale.
I would hope they add bus lanes from Franklin to 31st when they do the 4-3 conversion. The 4 is slated as one of the next BRT routes after the F,G,H (https://www.metrotransit.org/arterial-b ... t-planning) and that stretch would seem to require bus lanes so why not get a head start?

Bob Stinson's Ghost
Landmark Center
Posts: 264
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 11:36 pm

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Bob Stinson's Ghost » July 8th, 2021, 8:52 am

I've crossed Lyndale on foot and bicycle well over a thousand times without incident in the decades long time I've lived close to it. Maybe that's my one superpower. I do always cross with my smartphone in my pocket rather than in my hand, however.

A couple of days ago I saw a guy out in a traffic lane on a skateboard. I regularly see people bicycling with over the ear headphones. As long as there are cars, trucks, and buses on Lyndale I doubt that we can make these folks safe.

Mdcastle
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1209
Joined: March 23rd, 2013, 8:28 am
Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Mdcastle » July 8th, 2021, 8:58 am

There's not room for left turns, parking, and bus lanes. Since you can pick two out of the three deciding whether left turns or parking should be the one to go is probably more involved than the county wants to get for what's probably a chip seal or mill and overlay project. Maybe when there's a complete reconstruction or BRT actually comes through this can be revisited.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5989
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby MNdible » July 8th, 2021, 9:25 am

There's just no way that a 4-3 conversion of Lyndale is going to be able to handle the volume of traffic that the street has to handle. Take an honest look at the car queuing needs at lights throughout this stretch. It's going to make people livid.

alexschief
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1140
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby alexschief » July 8th, 2021, 9:50 am

There's just no way that a 4-3 conversion of Lyndale is going to be able to handle the volume of traffic that the street has to handle. Take an honest look at the car queuing needs at lights throughout this stretch. It's going to make people livid.
I mean, from a traffic engineering perspective, three-lane roads can often function better than four-lane roads by removing left turn queues from general traffic. The volumes on Lyndale are higher than what is typically considered the range for a three-lane road, but they are also higher than what is typically considered the range for the existing condition. Either way, the road is over the designed capacity. Hopefully in the long run, some drivers begin to alter their route or shift their mode of travel.

From a human perspective, congestion and capacity should not be a higher priority than the safety of pedestrians, bicyclists, and drivers on this corridor. There's always going to be peak hour congestion (and that's the case regardless of the 3 or 4 lane design), it's unclear to me why slightly expanded road capacity is too important to sacrifice for significant safety benefits.

For a long time, the mantra in American road design was to look at the numbers and design for those numbers, as if they were fixed amounts, like water coming through a faucet. But we know now that the design of the road actually influences those numbers quite a bit. Instead of designing to handle yesterday's AADT patterns, cities, counties, and states should design the roads they want for the future and let the traveling public sort out how to navigate them.

Trademark
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 642
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Trademark » July 8th, 2021, 10:21 am

There's not room for left turns, parking, and bus lanes. Since you can pick two out of the three deciding whether left turns or parking should be the one to go is probably more involved than the county wants to get for what's probably a chip seal or mill and overlay project. Maybe when there's a complete reconstruction or BRT actually comes through this can be revisited.
A 4-3 conversion on a busy street like this that is over the capacity of streets that are usually converted should probably be involved too. I think parking should go on this stretch of lyndale. And not wanting to pick a fight shouldn't be the reason why we don't try and improving bus service.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5989
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby MNdible » July 8th, 2021, 10:26 am

Clearly, the only two choices on the table are either a 4-3 conversion or leave the road exactly as it has been for the last 70 years without any pedestrian improvements.

Lyndale is a unique beast in the Minneapolis street system. It's *the* way into town for a huge and dense swath of South Minneapolis. When it backs up, some people may get on the bus. But more people will start cutting through the neighborhoods. Arterial streets are a thing for a reason. People are going to continue to drive (hopefully in much more efficient cars).

Trademark
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 642
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Trademark » July 8th, 2021, 11:33 am

Clearly, the only two choices on the table are either a 4-3 conversion or leave the road exactly as it has been for the last 70 years without any pedestrian improvements.

Lyndale is a unique beast in the Minneapolis street system. It's *the* way into town for a huge and dense swath of South Minneapolis. When it backs up, some people may get on the bus. But more people will start cutting through the neighborhoods. Arterial streets are a thing for a reason. People are going to continue to drive (hopefully in much more efficient cars).
It speaks to the lack of priority that we give local bus service that the only way that the only options are 4-3 and leaving it as is. Or that we should only revisit it when we put brt here.

I agree people will cut through side streets if we do the lane reduction and not take the bus because why sit on a bus that will be stuck in the same traffic except going even slower because of the stops. If you give the bus the lane and the cars in traffic see the bus passing them everyday that's the best advertising you can do. And it will actually be more likely to do something about cutting through side streets.

HKM
Metrodome
Posts: 60
Joined: March 6th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HKM » July 8th, 2021, 3:06 pm

Lyndale is a unique beast in the Minneapolis street system. It's *the* way into town for a huge and dense swath of South Minneapolis. When it backs up, some people may get on the bus. But more people will start cutting through the neighborhoods. Arterial streets are a thing for a reason. People are going to continue to drive (hopefully in much more efficient cars).
I think many drivers on Lyndale between Franklin and Lake would love to see all of the left-turning traffic, buses, parked cars (which in winter are frequently taking a portion of traffic lanes), and in-progress parallel parking out of their way.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
Posts: 4092
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » July 9th, 2021, 9:22 am

The addition of new Lake St ramps to 35W and the end of big-time construction, I think Lyndale will be fine with two general travel lanes in each direction. The road has the same traffic volumes as Hennepin, which is getting the same treatment. There are plenty of N-S capacity on city streets in Minneapolis that would/ could take additional traffic (even double) with little to no street changes (see blaisdell/ 1st). Plus the addition of actual turn lanes means if would be easier to spread traffic into the grid. Sure, it might add 5 minutes to drive time, but you're in the densest residential corridor in the city, get over it.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

BoredAgain
Union Depot
Posts: 321
Joined: July 3rd, 2014, 1:38 pm
Location: Lyndale Neighborhood

Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby BoredAgain » July 9th, 2021, 9:30 am

The addition of new Lake St ramps to 35W and the end of big-time construction, I think Lyndale will be fine with two general travel lanes in each direction. The road has the same traffic volumes as Hennepin, which is getting the same treatment. There are plenty of N-S capacity on city streets in Minneapolis that would/ could take additional traffic (even double) with little to no street changes (see blaisdell/ 1st). Plus the addition of actual turn lanes means if would be easier to spread traffic into the grid. Sure, it might add 5 minutes to drive time, but you're in the densest residential corridor in the city, get over it.
Blaisdell and 1st are both due for significant bike infrastructure upgrades. Also, most of the day, you are correct that they can handle more traffic, but not at high traffic commute times.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests