Gold Line BRT - Downtown St. Paul to Woodbury
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- Wells Fargo Center
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- Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Is there an expected date for groundbreaking yet? If this is going to open by 2024 I would think construction has to start sometime next year.
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- Wells Fargo Center
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- Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
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Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
60% design plans open for public comment through 10/16/2020. A video of the latest changes to the plans is available on the project page.
https://www.metrotransit.org/gold-line- ... ngineering
https://www.metrotransit.org/gold-line- ... ngineering
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
The price of this thing is going up to $532M to add more parking spaces at stations, in an attempt to boost the FTA project rating.
https://www.startribune.com/gold-line-b ... 600009761/
I'm increasingly convinced this one needs to go back to the drawing board. When we're throwing parking spaces at the problem to try and get the ridership numbers to clear the bare minimum thresholds for matching funding, that's just not a recipe for good transit.
If we're spending half a billion dollars, let's tack a few stops onto the eastern end of the Green Line and offer better quality service to the first-ring spots (and maybe 3M) where the ridership potential is obvious. Or alternatively, let's build 10 aBRT lines--give, say, 3 of 'em to the Eastside to compensate--and make a quantum leap in our transit grid coverage.
https://www.startribune.com/gold-line-b ... 600009761/
I'm increasingly convinced this one needs to go back to the drawing board. When we're throwing parking spaces at the problem to try and get the ridership numbers to clear the bare minimum thresholds for matching funding, that's just not a recipe for good transit.
If we're spending half a billion dollars, let's tack a few stops onto the eastern end of the Green Line and offer better quality service to the first-ring spots (and maybe 3M) where the ridership potential is obvious. Or alternatively, let's build 10 aBRT lines--give, say, 3 of 'em to the Eastside to compensate--and make a quantum leap in our transit grid coverage.
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- Wells Fargo Center
- Posts: 1717
- Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
The St. Paul Green Line facility is a major roadblock (or in this case a rail block) to extending the Green Line east, though maybe it could simply realign from 4th to Prince Street next to the Green Line facility. Then after turning onto Kellogg the Green Line could go where ever into the East Side. Or the more permanent but expensive solution of tunneling under Downtown St. Paul, which would replace the at-grade alignment. Either way I would be on board with an eastern extension of the Green Line into the East Side. I've kept an open mind to the Gold Line ever since they chose BRT for it, but east of 3M there just isn't a good way of serving that area with rapid transit whether it's bus or rail. How about Woodbury puts in serious effort to turn Woodbury Village and/or Tamarack Village from a sea of parking into mixed-use development and then we'll see about rapid transit going out there.
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- Wells Fargo Center
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- Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
- Location: Minneapolis
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Just a massive, massive indictment of FTA New Starts funding formulas.
Park and rides are a short term strategy, they're not a long term solution for ridership. We know what builds ridership over time, and it's housing and jobs and activities close to transit. Park and rides take up space that could otherwise be more productively used, and they put those productive uses further away from the stations.
I doubt that any Buttigeig-DOT reform would be in time to save this project from this stupid math, but I'd like to believe it might be possible.
Park and rides are a short term strategy, they're not a long term solution for ridership. We know what builds ridership over time, and it's housing and jobs and activities close to transit. Park and rides take up space that could otherwise be more productively used, and they put those productive uses further away from the stations.
I doubt that any Buttigeig-DOT reform would be in time to save this project from this stupid math, but I'd like to believe it might be possible.
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Would converting a couple lanes of 94 to MnPass, adding a 46th St-style station at Snelling (I know that the bridge was just redecked five years ago) and extending it to Minneapolis to replace the 94 juice ridership as much as these parking spaces for a fraction of the cost, or is this the same FTA math that got us 3A over 3C for SWLRT, because the couple hundred brand new riders lured in by zooming through Kenwood were considered more valuable than the couple thousand existing bus riders coming from Uptown?
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
I'd think that Ramsey County could extend the Green Line to Metro State with local funds only, fairly quickly, and meet a good portion of the need over there. Once that short extension was finished, they could then apply for a New Starts grant to extend it on to 3M, using the local cost of the extension to Metro State as the local match. They could build a large park-and-ride adjacent to the 3M station and I bet they'd meet 90% of the total Gold Line usage, while bringing much higher quality service to the core facilities on the line.If we're spending half a billion dollars, let's tack a few stops onto the eastern end of the Green Line and offer better quality service to the first-ring spots (and maybe 3M) where the ridership potential is obvious. Or alternatively, let's build 10 aBRT lines--give, say, 3 of 'em to the Eastside to compensate--and make a quantum leap in our transit grid coverage.
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
I don't get why rail would be higher quality except for the ability to have a one seat ride especially with the tight turns that would be required to get out of downtownIf we're spending half a billion dollars, let's tack a few stops onto the eastern end of the Green Line and offer better quality service to the first-ring spots (and maybe 3M) where the ridership potential is obvious. Or alternatively, let's build 10 aBRT lines--give, say, 3 of 'em to the Eastside to compensate--and make a quantum leap in our transit grid coverage.
I'd think that Ramsey County could extend the Green Line to Metro State with local funds only, fairly quickly, and meet a good portion of the need over there. Once that short extension was finished, they could then apply for a New Starts grant to extend it on to 3M, using the local cost of the extension to Metro State as the local match. They could build a large park-and-ride adjacent to the 3M station and I bet they'd meet 90% of the total Gold Line usage, while bringing much higher quality service to the core facilities on the line.
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- Wells Fargo Center
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- Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Gold Line cleared by FTA to begin engineering phase. https://www.startribune.com/east-metro- ... 600045987/
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
excellent!
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- Wells Fargo Center
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
- Location: Minneapolis
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
I was surprised that this project is still anticipated to be completed in 2024, and while I still don't totally believe that they'll make that, Ethan Osten told me on Twitter that they are at 60% engineering, so they should speed through that stage and be ready for construction next year.
On another topic, it's really remarkable that this project went from Medium-Low to Medium-High thanks to some structured parking. Real indictment of our transportation funding formulas.
On another topic, it's really remarkable that this project went from Medium-Low to Medium-High thanks to some structured parking. Real indictment of our transportation funding formulas.
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
I'm not in favor of park and rides as a whole but it does make sense why it would raise the rating. Car ownership in Woodbury, Cottage Grove and Lake Elmo is so high that a huge percentage of potential ridership would be park and riders. Still think it would have been better to go to Tamarack tho as that would have been an actual trip generator. But I don't think putting a 5 over 1 or two at the end of the line instead of a park and ride would significantly change ridership here especially short term.I was surprised that this project is still anticipated to be completed in 2024, and while I still don't totally believe that they'll make that, Ethan Osten told me on Twitter that they are at 60% engineering, so they should speed through that stage and be ready for construction next year.
On another topic, it's really remarkable that this project went from Medium-Low to Medium-High thanks to some structured parking. Real indictment of our transportation funding formulas.
Also my standard practice is to add a year to any projected completion date of a project. It's so rare when a project won't get delayed
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- Wells Fargo Center
- Posts: 1717
- Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
My standard is to have no expectations. That way I won't end up disappointed like I was with the Green Line Extension, Blue Line Extension, and Orange Line that had projected opening dates of 2015, 2018, and 2019 respectively.Also my standard practice is to add a year to any projected completion date of a project. It's so rare when a project won't get delayedI was surprised that this project is still anticipated to be completed in 2024, and while I still don't totally believe that they'll make that, Ethan Osten told me on Twitter that they are at 60% engineering, so they should speed through that stage and be ready for construction next year.
On another topic, it's really remarkable that this project went from Medium-Low to Medium-High thanks to some structured parking. Real indictment of our transportation funding formulas.
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
That's true. I meant adding a year from start if construction. Before construction we have no clueMy standard is to have no expectations. That way I won't end up disappointed like I was with the Green Line Extension, Blue Line Extension, and Orange Line that had projected opening dates of 2015, 2018, and 2019 respectively.Also my standard practice is to add a year to any projected completion date of a project. It's so rare when a project won't get delayedI was surprised that this project is still anticipated to be completed in 2024, and while I still don't totally believe that they'll make that, Ethan Osten told me on Twitter that they are at 60% engineering, so they should speed through that stage and be ready for construction next year.
On another topic, it's really remarkable that this project went from Medium-Low to Medium-High thanks to some structured parking. Real indictment of our transportation funding formulas.
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- Rice Park
- Posts: 412
- Joined: January 29th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
For all its flaws, the Gold Line has made the cut in President Biden's proposed 2022 budget. $100 million appropriated out of $239 million expected from the feds. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minne ... NewsSearch
The project is now rated as having a medium-high priority (likely) thanks to the addition of hundreds of park-and-ride stalls along the route. More evidence that the FTA formula needs a total recrunching.
As an East Metro™ resident, this project is desperately needed as a catalyst for transit expansion on the east side. The Gold Line is flawed, but it will serve as a solid backbone for east side transit expansion and for proving the transit market out here.
The project is now rated as having a medium-high priority (likely) thanks to the addition of hundreds of park-and-ride stalls along the route. More evidence that the FTA formula needs a total recrunching.
As an East Metro™ resident, this project is desperately needed as a catalyst for transit expansion on the east side. The Gold Line is flawed, but it will serve as a solid backbone for east side transit expansion and for proving the transit market out here.
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- Rice Park
- Posts: 412
- Joined: January 29th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Speaking of Ramsey County transitway projects, the Gold Line is 100% engineered and ready to begin construction next spring in anticipation of a 2025 opening. Some notes from the latest CMC meeting:
Here's the presentation to view yourself: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... 211007.pdf
- The FTA is currently doing risk assessment for the project, expected to be completed this month.
- The latest estimated budget is $531.9 million.
- Washington County is no longer planning on building its service center at the Woodbury Park & Ride.
- 5 electric buses and their equipment have been added to the project, in addition to the original 12 diesel buses.
- 34 parcels have already been purchased for ROW; approximately 168 parcels will be needed.
- Oakdale's TOD plan looks pretty sweet, Woodbury's pretty limp.
Here's the presentation to view yourself: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... 211007.pdf
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
Sorry if this is answered by reading the link (metro transits site isn't working rn), but why isn't Washington country going to build their service center there anymore? And where will they build it instead?Speaking of Ramsey County transitway projects, the Gold Line is 100% engineered and ready to begin construction next spring in anticipation of a 2025 opening. Some notes from the latest CMC meeting:
Will be interesting to see this go forward. It's pricey for a bus line to Woodbury, but it looks like a decent product. I wonder if NIMBYs will get in the way before this goes forward.
- The FTA is currently doing risk assessment for the project, expected to be completed this month.
- The latest estimated budget is $531.9 million.
- Washington County is no longer planning on building its service center at the Woodbury Park & Ride.
- 5 electric buses and their equipment have been added to the project, in addition to the original 12 diesel buses.
- 34 parcels have already been purchased for ROW; approximately 168 parcels will be needed.
- Oakdale's TOD plan looks pretty sweet, Woodbury's pretty limp.
Here's the presentation to view yourself: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... 211007.pdf
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- Rice Park
- Posts: 412
- Joined: January 29th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
I did some digging and found a single clause in a May presentation explaining the decision by Washington County to not locate a new service center there: "Financial objectives blocked path to successful lease term agreement." Kinda opaque.Sorry if this is answered by reading the link (metro transits site isn't working rn), but why isn't Washington country going to build their service center there anymore? And where will they build it instead?Speaking of Ramsey County transitway projects, the Gold Line is 100% engineered and ready to begin construction next spring in anticipation of a 2025 opening. Some notes from the latest CMC meeting:
Will be interesting to see this go forward. It's pricey for a bus line to Woodbury, but it looks like a decent product. I wonder if NIMBYs will get in the way before this goes forward.
- The FTA is currently doing risk assessment for the project, expected to be completed this month.
- The latest estimated budget is $531.9 million.
- Washington County is no longer planning on building its service center at the Woodbury Park & Ride.
- 5 electric buses and their equipment have been added to the project, in addition to the original 12 diesel buses.
- 34 parcels have already been purchased for ROW; approximately 168 parcels will be needed.
- Oakdale's TOD plan looks pretty sweet, Woodbury's pretty limp.
Here's the presentation to view yourself: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... 211007.pdf
Washington County is still supporting the project overall, including the 512 stall parking ramp planned on the site. The City of Woodbury is advocating for all the city's park-and-ride lots be consolidated to the new ramp. Shouldn't be too hard, considering that Metro Transit just ended their lease on 2/3 of their spaces in the city. I don't think the ramp includes a bus slip lane to 494 north, which is kinda insane to me, but whatever.
I am also aware that Woodbury is planning for the redevelopment of the theatre adjacent to the Woodbury Theatre station, but no other lots near the station. Met Council should muscle them into supporting mixed-use projects at Woodbury Village.
Page 171: https://www.co.washington.mn.us/AgendaC ... 12021-1307
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- Rice Park
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Re: Gold Line BRT (Gateway Corridor)
The 100% plans for the Gold Line haven't been released publicly, but the FTA review of them has. Here are changes from the 90% plans:
- Bus lanes on 5th Street in downtown St. Paul[*}Various pedestrian improvements throughout downtown St. Paul (curb bumpouts, new signals, etc.)
- Minor diet for about a block of 3rd Street on the east end of the Kellogg Bridge
- Improved noise wall at Etna Street Station
- 5 electic buses in addition to the 12 already expected diesel buses
- 29 less street parking spots throughout the corridor
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