Gold Line BRT - Downtown St. Paul to Woodbury

[mulad]

The Gateway Corridor folks are looking for Community Advisory Committee members, with applications due July 19th.

http://thegatewaycorridor.com/documents/2013/CAC Application_Final_v2.pdf

[Tcmetro]

Saw this on the website, giving a better idea of the alignment: http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/docum ... %20Map.pdf

Also, a PAC, CAC, and TAC have been formed: http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/html/ ... tement.php

[David Greene]

Saw this on the website, giving a better idea of the alignment: http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/docum ... %20Map.pdf

Also, a PAC, CAC, and TAC have been formed: http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/html/ ... tement.php

God, this pisses me off. It happens every single damn time.

Why do businesses get special representation on the PAC while community members are shut out?

You've got the business voice on the PAC and the CAC but residents only serve on the CAC.

No, elected officials on the PAC don't count. Those officials represent businesses as well as residents.

Another shining example of how we've slanted the table so far toward business and commerce instead of *people*.

[twincitizen]

I see they've come to their senses and are open to (re-)adding a Radio Drive Station, near the heart of the City's retail district. Overall, that guideway alignment (ending in D1 to the east) looks good. The Manning Ave (surface lot) P&R is already being built, and with the addition of Gateway it can serve station to station trips as well as peak hour commuters.

I think they should look at the guideway and reconstruction of the Kellogg Ave east bridge comprehensively, to maximize redevelopment potential of that currently vacant RR/parking area east of Lowertown.

Also, this line is going to need a TON of pedestrian bridges over I-94 to maximize ridership potential. Heck, the pedestrian bridges at those locations would be a great addition regardless of if the line gets built.

[talindsay]

In my somewhat humble opinion, they need more stations inside Saint Paul. The B1 routing option is stupid and shouldn't even be considered; B2 only makes sense, it should be done as an extension to the Green Line, there should be twice as many stops along the B2 portion, and if they can't afford to run rail farther than the White Bear / I-94 interchange then they could have buses interface with it there. But sending anything straight out the east side of Union Depot onto the freeway wouldn't even address the needs of this corridor - it would be a commuter bus to the eastern exurbs. Maybe that's useful in its own right, but the B2 routing is the actual corridor to be addressed here.

[David Greene]

^^^ This.

I have my doubts that rail makes sense along B2 but I don't know much about this project or the area at all. But it is absolutely the case that B1 avoids a very transit-dependent population in the city to provide a quicker/more convenient trip for those living in the exurbs. That's backward.

But the impression I have is that B1 is pretty much a done deal.

[RailBaronYarr]

^^Bummer.

[Viktor Vaughn]

I have my doubts that rail makes sense along B2 but I don't know much about this project or the area at all. But it is absolutely the case that B1 avoids a very transit-dependent population in the city to provide a quicker/more convenient trip for those living in the exurbs. That's backward.

Really?! This hurts.

[woofner]

What is stupid about taking the most direct route between Downtown St Paul and the major retail and jobs centers of Sun Ray and 3M? In addition, most of the pockets of dense housing on the East Side are right along I-94 and will be well-served by B1, especially if they do an Etna station and redo the car sewer interchange there.

Frankly E 7th is a moonscape west of Earl and east of Earl it was never that dense in the first place. I could see it being a good straight line downtown for a Rush Line transitway, but it just seems slow and circuitous for a line that is focused on the destinations along I-94 east of White Bear Ave. Adding n-s bus service with a potential segment along an I-94 open busway would serve the East Side as well as B2 and would have the bonus of also allowing them to go places besides Downtown St Paul and Woodbury.

[twincitizen]

I'm with Woofner on this.

Why are we trying to serve E. 7th/White Bear Ave with the Gateway Corridor? That's what aBRT on E. 7th (and/or Rush Line Corridor) is for. Trying to serve those neighborhoods with this line is trying to do too many things at once. This project will connect important nodes along I-94 east of Downtown St. Paul and hopefully take some cars off the freeway. Dicking around on surface streets on the east side isn't going to get that done.

[David Greene]

I totally understand the viewpoints here. As I said, I don't really know enough about the area. I agree that aBRT or maybe a streetcar might better serve E. 7th. The question for me is the willingness for follow-through. We don't have a great track record of serving those who most need it.

[Tcmetro]

Yet no Radio Drive Station for Gateway BRT. Time to reevaluate? I don't see how a Woodbury Drive (CR-19) Station provides more value, when the Manning Ave Station (terminus) is there to catch all commuters from east Woodbury, Lake Elmo, and rural areas further east.

I'm surprised they aren't contemplating any residential here. Certainly there is demand for newer/nicer apartments in this employment-rich, freeway-access-rich area.

EDIT: Sorry for going O/T, the lack of a Radio Drive Station just frustrates me. Gateway Corridor topic here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=483

Replying from the Woodbury office thread....

Radio Dr as well as a station at Etna St will be studied when the LPA is chosen. Considering BRT is likely, both of those stations will be really cheap to add.

[Tcmetro]

Here is the presentation for the 2nd CAC meeting that took place the other week:
http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/docum ... tation.pdf

The FTA required that the 7th Street alignment be restudied as part of the DEIS, but it was ruled out again.

[Tcmetro]

The Gateway Corridor Commission held a meeting on the 12th of this month; the agenda packet is available here: http://www.thegatewaycorridor.com/docum ... -12-13.pdf

There's quite a bit of information, but it gets really interesting at page 40. MnDot and Met Council are requesting a new alternative to be studied as part of the DEIS. This would be a bus-only shoulder option, similar to the Highway BRT plans underway. MnDot and Met Council are worried that the Gateway project will take too much ROW in the I-94 corridor, precluding long-term freeway expansion and/or addition of a managed lane (i.e. a multimodal option, which a BRT or LRT line inherently doesn't have.) The AA claims that the fastest express bus times are when buses are using the freeway, and using the bus-only shoulders in periods of congestion. So the consequential claim is that the bus-only shoulder option will provide the fastest trip times during peak hours, when ridership will be highest. Of course this doesn't take into consideration that the "on-line" (in the median of the freeway) and "in-line" (on the exit ramps) stations do not promote economic development well.

So I suppose we'll see how this one plays out. But it sounds to me that a transit investment will get dumbed down to a bus-only shoulder project.

Page 34 features the DEIS activities update, explaining what has recently happened, and what will happen.

[bptenor]

Ugh. Eww. And, what about all the riders who are not suburban commuters? I don't think they'd agree that they'd rather walk to a park-and-ride, or a bench on the shoulder of the interstate. Maybe this is cheaper, but it's really not much better *quality* than what's already there.

[twincitizen]

Well that's one way to get Washington County to vote to leave CTIB.

[mulad]

The Gateway Corridor in itself is a really poor way to try to entice Washington County to stay in CTIB. The county is mostly Oakdale, Woodbury, Cottage Grove, and Stillwater, and Gateway barely touches Oakdale (because it's so narrow anyway) or Woodbury. A much better way to prove to the county that their membership is worthwhile would be to build up a service grid along major arterials. Here's a basic idea, which could connect to services running on I-94, I-494, and US-61 (possibly Red Rock, whatever form that takes). A similar approach should probably be taken for Cottage Grove and other cities along 61 to make Red Rock more viable.



I drew that map using 12 lines, and a couple of them could probably be combined. However, while I think it would be a good idea to run these as regular local routes about every 30 minutes, some roads should have an express service overlay.

Existing transit service is very paltry, only hitting a few park-and-rides in the northwest corner of Woodbury. Adding Gateway to what's currently there wouldn't be very helpful.


transit-service-woodbury-2013-12-14 by Mulad, on Flickr

[David Greene]

The Gateway Corridor in itself is a really poor way to try to entice Washington County to stay in CTIB. The county is mostly Oakdale, Woodbury, Cottage Grove, and Stillwater, and Gateway barely touches Oakdale (because it's so narrow anyway) or Woodbury. A much better way to prove to the county that their membership is worthwhile would be to build up a service grid along major arterials.

CTIB money can only be used for Met Council-designated transitways. To my knowledge there's no intent to use any of it for arterials.

I hope the east metro counties fight the shoulder plan and set a precedent for investing in quality transit.

[Tcmetro]

http://www.twincities.com/washingtoncou ... or-transit

[Snelbian]

So this would go from "corridor" investment to essentially adding a couple stops to existing express routes and adding some mid-day trips. Meanwhile, Bottineau.

Yeah, no idea why the East Metro feels ignored by the Met Council...