Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

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NickP
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby NickP » July 16th, 2021, 10:44 am

I somehow Daudt that a GOP-led MN legislature would have any part in covering the difference.
Great pun! Haha :-)

StandishGuy
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby StandishGuy » July 16th, 2021, 12:31 pm

Wow! This project is so depressing and frustrating. There are so few resources to build good transit, and the funding that is available is being wasted on an expensive tunnel and wall that do nothing to improve service. At this point would it be cheaper to buy out the TC&W and/or the townhouses adjacent to the corridor to scrap the tunnel?

Am I alone in feeling despair with the state of the Twin Cities right now due to the rise in crime, civil unrest, COVID closures, transit ridership collapse and poorly conceived transit projects? It feels bad to be an urbanist right now. :(

DanPatchToget
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » July 16th, 2021, 12:51 pm

Wow! This project is so depressing and frustrating. There are so few resources to build good transit, and the funding that is available is being wasted on an expensive tunnel and wall that do nothing to improve service. At this point would it be cheaper to buy out the TC&W and/or the townhouses adjacent to the corridor to scrap the tunnel?

Am I alone in feeling despair with the state of the Twin Cities right now due to the rise in crime, civil unrest, COVID closures, transit ridership collapse and poorly conceived transit projects? It feels bad to be an urbanist right now. :(
Unfortunately it's far too late to go back on the tunnel. Discussion of acquiring the townhouses and/or TC&W would've had to take place a decade ago for those options to be slightly feasible, and even then would likely be borderline impossible.

If things do indeed get messier on the tunnel project and lead to severe cost increases and delays, then that definitely won't look good for the Met Council. People, especially suburbanites, already don't have a lot of trust in the Met Council and this could make planning and implementing future transit projects more difficult than it already is.

alexschief
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » July 16th, 2021, 1:06 pm

That's exactly it. The elements of SWLRT's design that have caused so many problems were pushed forward to benefit suburban interests at the expense of city interests. But because transit is primary a city concern overall, any potential backlash from this project is likely to rebound against transit expansion in urban areas.

MNdible
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » July 16th, 2021, 3:41 pm

Y'all will disagree, but the root of this problem wasn't the selection of the Kenilworth Corridor as the preferred route for the LRT, it was the failure to kick the freight rail out. If they'd played their cards right with the TC&W, SWLRT would be running at grade on cheap ballasted track through the corridor. If memory serves, lots of people deserve blame for this, but Governor Dayton especially failed to maintain a united front on this.

And yes, the state probably could have purchased the TC&W a couple of times over for what they're going to end up paying for the tunnel and other payments made to the railroad.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » July 16th, 2021, 3:59 pm

Y'all will disagree, but the root of this problem wasn't the selection of the Kenilworth Corridor as the preferred route for the LRT, it was the failure to kick the freight rail out. If they'd played their cards right with the TC&W, SWLRT would be running at grade on cheap ballasted track through the corridor. If memory serves, lots of people deserve blame for this, but Governor Dayton especially failed to maintain a united front on this.

And yes, the state probably could have purchased the TC&W a couple of times over for what they're going to end up paying for the tunnel and other payments made to the railroad.
TC&W was never going to accept a reroute, especially the poorly planned one on the Dan Patch Line through St. Louis Park.

If we want to talk about failure to secure Southwest LRT completely at-grade through Kenilworth, then that happened in the late 80s when townhouses were allowed to be built right next to the railroad right-of-way. Up until the early 80s there were 6 tracks going under West Lake, 9 tracks next to the grain elevator that's now a condo, 7 tracks next to the north edge of Park Siding Park, and 3 tracks across Cedar Lake Parkway.

Korh
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » July 16th, 2021, 5:46 pm

Y'all will disagree, but the root of this problem wasn't the selection of the Kenilworth Corridor as the preferred route for the LRT, it was the failure to kick the freight rail out. If they'd played their cards right with the TC&W, SWLRT would be running at grade on cheap ballasted track through the corridor. If memory serves, lots of people deserve blame for this, but Governor Dayton especially failed to maintain a united front on this.

And yes, the state probably could have purchased the TC&W a couple of times over for what they're going to end up paying for the tunnel and other payments made to the railroad.
Can anyone remind me how TC&W ended up in the corridor to begin with? From what I can gather they used to used the trench back in the 90s, then where moved to kenilworth when they turned it into the greenway we know today, but that was supposed to be a temporary thing only lasting 5 years.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » July 16th, 2021, 6:08 pm

Y'all will disagree, but the root of this problem wasn't the selection of the Kenilworth Corridor as the preferred route for the LRT, it was the failure to kick the freight rail out. If they'd played their cards right with the TC&W, SWLRT would be running at grade on cheap ballasted track through the corridor. If memory serves, lots of people deserve blame for this, but Governor Dayton especially failed to maintain a united front on this.

And yes, the state probably could have purchased the TC&W a couple of times over for what they're going to end up paying for the tunnel and other payments made to the railroad.
Can anyone remind me how TC&W ended up in the corridor to begin with? From what I can gather they used to used the trench back in the 90s, then where moved to kenilworth when they turned it into the greenway we know today, but that was supposed to be a temporary thing only lasting 5 years.
TC&W used the trench from 1991 (when they began operations) until 1998 when the rail corridor in the trench was severed by the reconstruction of Hiawatha Avenue and later on the Blue Line. The Kenilworth Corridor was temporarily abandoned from 1994 to 1998. Prior to 1994 it was used by the Chicago & North Western and Minnesota Valley/Minnesota Central. Freight traffic dried up and no one had use for it until TC&W's original route through South Minneapolis was severed. Supposedly there was an agreement by St. Louis Park to accept an eventual rerouting of the TC&W onto the Dan Patch Line to make room for Southwest LRT in Kenilworth. As far as I know that agreement doesn't actually exist, and it seems more like the Met Council and Minneapolis assumed St. Louis Park and the TC&W would agree to the reroute. Well in 2012 debate over the reroute really heated up, and the Met Council tried to convince people it was a done deal, but residents and the city council of St. Louis Park weren't accepting that. The TC&W shared their concerns with the reroute proposal and how it would severely impact their operations, and once they made it clear they wouldn't accept any reroute proposal the Met Council backed off, which was in 2014.

So basically there were costly assumptions and not dealing with the issues of the reroute proposal early on.

For a brief period the Met Council tossed around the idea of other places to reroute the TC&W which included rebuilding track through the trench, rebuilding a rail line that was abandoned in the 1980s from Cologne to Shakopee, and rebuilding a rail line (that's now part of the North Cedar Lake Trail) through Hopkins. Not surprisingly none of those ideas got serious consideration.

Korh
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » July 16th, 2021, 7:03 pm

Y'all will disagree, but the root of this problem wasn't the selection of the Kenilworth Corridor as the preferred route for the LRT, it was the failure to kick the freight rail out. If they'd played their cards right with the TC&W, SWLRT would be running at grade on cheap ballasted track through the corridor. If memory serves, lots of people deserve blame for this, but Governor Dayton especially failed to maintain a united front on this.

And yes, the state probably could have purchased the TC&W a couple of times over for what they're going to end up paying for the tunnel and other payments made to the railroad.
Can anyone remind me how TC&W ended up in the corridor to begin with? From what I can gather they used to used the trench back in the 90s, then where moved to kenilworth when they turned it into the greenway we know today, but that was supposed to be a temporary thing only lasting 5 years.
TC&W used the trench from 1991 (when they began operations) until 1998 when the rail corridor in the trench was severed by the reconstruction of Hiawatha Avenue and later on the Blue Line. The Kenilworth Corridor was temporarily abandoned from 1994 to 1998. Prior to 1994 it was used by the Chicago & North Western and Minnesota Valley/Minnesota Central. Freight traffic dried up and no one had use for it until TC&W's original route through South Minneapolis was severed. Supposedly there was an agreement by St. Louis Park to accept an eventual rerouting of the TC&W onto the Dan Patch Line to make room for Southwest LRT in Kenilworth. As far as I know that agreement doesn't actually exist, and it seems more like the Met Council and Minneapolis assumed St. Louis Park and the TC&W would agree to the reroute. Well in 2012 debate over the reroute really heated up, and the Met Council tried to convince people it was a done deal, but residents and the city council of St. Louis Park weren't accepting that. The TC&W shared their concerns with the reroute proposal and how it would severely impact their operations, and once they made it clear they wouldn't accept any reroute proposal the Met Council backed off, which was in 2014.

So basically there were costly assumptions and not dealing with the issues of the reroute proposal early on.

For a brief period the Met Council tossed around the idea of other places to reroute the TC&W which included rebuilding track through the trench, rebuilding a rail line that was abandoned in the 1980s from Cologne to Shakopee, and rebuilding a rail line (that's now part of the North Cedar Lake Trail) through Hopkins. Not surprisingly none of those ideas got serious consideration.
I wonder if there was/is an ideal reroute that could of been made, part of me thinks at this point it would of been cheaper to literally build new ROW at west in McLeod or Carver counties to connect to the wayzata subdivision.
Also this reminds me of a certain transit group I follow and how they can get pretty heated over rail-trails. Half of them kinda hate them saying that it does more harm to transit then good and there are better places to build trails while the other argues that rail-trails get more people into biking then any other type and helps closer tie the connection between bikes and transit.

MNdible
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » July 19th, 2021, 9:22 am

TC&W was never going to accept a reroute, especially the poorly planned one on the Dan Patch Line through St. Louis Park.
We're not talking about the Great Northern transcon here. This is a tiny railroad shipping low volumes of low value commodities. The fact that we let them dictate terms over a line that will serve tens of thousands of people daily is preposterous, and shows a real lack of political competency.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » July 19th, 2021, 9:31 am

TC&W was never going to accept a reroute, especially the poorly planned one on the Dan Patch Line through St. Louis Park.
We're not talking about the Great Northern transcon here. This is a tiny railroad shipping low volumes of low value commodities. The fact that we let them dictate terms over a line that will serve tens of thousands of people daily is preposterous, and shows a real lack of political competency.
I don't think the farmers and industries out in western Minnesota would appreciate their commodities being called low value. TC&W may be a tiny railroad, but the stuff they're shipping is going all over the world. The Class 1 railroads help the TC&W get that stuff from their origin or to their destination, so that means if you try messing with the TC&W then you're also going to have to deal with the Class 1 giants.

Also here's a fun fact: The route TC&W operates on used to be the Milwaukee Road's transcontinental route.

MNdible
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » July 19th, 2021, 11:15 am

Do I hate farmers? No I do not. But I stand by my claim that the value of what's getting shipped over the TC&W is not, in the big picture, that great. Even so, I wasn't suggesting that they should stop shipping it. I was suggesting that using political leverage to convince them that they could live with something less than their preferred routing, or accepting greatly reduced speeds through a less than ideal geometry interchange, would have made more sense than the option we ended up with.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » July 19th, 2021, 12:42 pm

Do I hate farmers? No I do not. But I stand by my claim that the value of what's getting shipped over the TC&W is not, in the big picture, that great. Even so, I wasn't suggesting that they should stop shipping it. I was suggesting that using political leverage to convince them that they could live with something less than their preferred routing, or accepting greatly reduced speeds through a less than ideal geometry interchange, would have made more sense than the option we ended up with.
Do you know the exact amount of freight TC&W ships annually? As far as I know it's not public record, so neither of us can be sure. However, I do know it's common to see trains 50-100+ cars long on the TC&W, the 100+ car trains usually carrying ethanol or DDG (dried distiller grain). Even if we could've played hardball with the railroad to convince them to accept the reroute, it would've been awful for both the railroad and St. Louis Park. With all the curves and grade crossings on the Dan Patch Line through St. Louis Park it simply wasn't built for those land barges. The Met Council should've bit the bullet and either went with the Uptown route or acquired the townhouses so there would be enough room for the light rail, freight rail, and trail at-grade. Obviously it's way too late for that, but hopefully lessons have been learned.

Anondson
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby Anondson » July 30th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Drone video tour of major structures, June 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rTsxhbhEtc

Anondson
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby Anondson » August 13th, 2021, 10:47 am


alexschief
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby alexschief » August 13th, 2021, 12:41 pm

Given what's been reported, there's going to be a funny period of this project starting maybe around early to mid 2023, where the construction on the line will be something like 95% complete, but the Kenilworth Tunnel will still be under heavy construction. I am curious if it'll be possible to shave some time off the delivery of the project by loading the new trains onto different parts of the line and testing them separately on the portions between SouthWest Station and West Lake Station, and the portion between Target Field Station and 21st Street Station. Essentially, everywhere but the tunnel. Or does the entire thing need to be built before testing can start? I hope there's a creative solution to shave some time off, since aside from the tunnel wall fiasco, everything else appears to be on schedule.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » August 13th, 2021, 1:40 pm

Given what's been reported, there's going to be a funny period of this project starting maybe around early to mid 2023, where the construction on the line will be something like 95% complete, but the Kenilworth Tunnel will still be under heavy construction. I am curious if it'll be possible to shave some time off the delivery of the project by loading the new trains onto different parts of the line and testing them separately on the portions between SouthWest Station and West Lake Station, and the portion between Target Field Station and 21st Street Station. Essentially, everywhere but the tunnel. Or does the entire thing need to be built before testing can start? I hope there's a creative solution to shave some time off, since aside from the tunnel wall fiasco, everything else appears to be on schedule.
I assume the trains will need access to maintenance facilities, so operating between SouthWest and West Lake would be a no-go.

alexschief
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby alexschief » August 13th, 2021, 2:26 pm

It sort of depends on what they're actually going to build at Shady Oak. I know it's not a full maintenance facility, but I'm not super clear what the ultimate plans are there.

Korh
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby Korh » August 14th, 2021, 2:07 pm

Part of me is kinda glade Hopkins is the first place to get track laid

But the fact that the image they used has the Honda dealership is in full view less then 100ft away from the station still kinda stings

DanPatchToget
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Re: Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » August 14th, 2021, 2:19 pm

Part of me is kinda glade Hopkins is the first place to get track laid

But the fact that the image they used has the Honda dealership is in full view less then 100ft away from the station still kinda stings
That's why I propose (jokingly) that they rename it Hopkins Honda Station. :P

Would be nice if Excelsior Boulevard were calmed and more pedestrian- and bike-oriented so 1) it's easier getting between the station and downtown Hopkins and 2) the entire stretch from the western edge of Minneapolis to Hopkins is more pleasant and easy to access without a car. People who want to drive fast can use Highway 7.


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