Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[blobs]

What if they ran an adjacent train with only say 3 stops - Eden Prairie, Hopkins, and Downtown? So you could switch between the route with all the stops or the faster one with just the 3 stops. Is this pie-in-the-sky? It just seems like this proposed route would be so long (distance and with number of stops) as to not be useful for many people.

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

It drives me crazy that there won't be a stop in Uptown. That is all.

[twincitizen]

What if they ran an adjacent train with only say 3 stops - Eden Prairie, Hopkins, and Downtown? So you could switch between the route with all the stops or the faster one with just the 3 stops. Is this pie-in-the-sky? It just seems like this proposed route would be so long (distance and with number of stops) as to not be useful for many people.

Dude, the LRT runs every 7.5-10 minutes at peak...how are you going to squeeze a skip-stop train in there? Wouldn't it just catch up to the one in front of it? Unless of course you're proposing a siding at EVERY station you're skipping for the express train to pass.

Skipping a few stops will not save you that much time when you still have to deal with limited travel speed (i.e. less than 60MPH like the highway) and traffic signal delays, etc.

The dwell time at each station is like 30 seconds. If you want faster travel, I'd rather do it by increasing frequency to reduce the amount of time spent waiting. Same effect as skipping stops, but better service for everyone along the corridor. 10 minute frequency isn't that great, IMO.

[beykite]

Going from Mitchell to Target Field will be 33 minutes. I don't think that is too long as to affect the usefulness of the route. That's pretty comparable to the time it takes via a bus in traffic. Plus a majority of the riderswon't be going from one terminus to the other anyways so it shouldnt be a big issue.

[mattaudio]

Wait I thought they basically decided to make this an express train between Downtown and West Lake, since they're bypassing one of the biggest transit destinations in between the two...

[blobs]

Going from Mitchell to Target Field will be 33 minutes. I don't think that is too long as to affect the usefulness of the route. That's pretty comparable to the time it takes via a bus in traffic. Plus a majority of the riderswon't be going from one terminus to the other anyways so it shouldnt be a big issue.

Never mind then! Didn't know that - I guess I assumed it was an hour long trip.

[LRV Op Dude]

Edina Senator Introduces Light Rail Funding Legislation

[twincitizen]

F&C: Top SWLRT Issues Outlined (free)

1. Eden Prairie Routing: It sounds like Eden Prairie is serious about getting a station closer to the Mall. Good for them. Possibly the entire routing outside of the 494 loop could be up in the air as well, which doesn't seem like a problem as long as the line still serves Southwest Station.

2. O&M Facility Location: Contact your Minneapolis City Councilmember and tell them to drop their opposition to having the maintenance facility in the city. Do you want all of those well-paid blue-collar operator & mechanic jobs to be out in Eden Prairie or in Minneapolis? Metro Transit already owns a ton of land behind the bus garage, not far from the interchange. Having the facility on the Minneapolis end could simplify problem #1 as well. While there would be an increase in operator hours (due to dead-heading trains out to EP everymorning), there could be some efficiencies from being near Heywood and the Interchange. Not to mention the whole access to jobs thing.

3. Co-location vs. Freight re-route: I'm curious what your take on the issue is. Obviously I'm no expert, but co-location seems to make more sense long-term, even (especially?) if it means losing the 21st St Station. Can someone remind me why the re-route is preferred?

The only thing that won't change much is the budget. It seems a good deal of money could be saved by cutting a few Park & Rides and just making the areas more walkable. Huge P&Rs at station areas is not TOD. There's a lot of grade separation out on the western half of the line that really isn't optional, due to highway/stroad crossing, so I'm predicting at least one station will get cut to make budget.

[Andrew_F]

Another possible benefit of a downtown O&M facility might be its usage if another shorter stub line were to be built in phases.
perhaps out to the West End or up the U of M Transitway, maybe even to Roseville. Presumably a shorter line could make use of an existing O&M facility downtown?

[mattaudio]

That's true, although I'm hesitant for such large facilities to locate downtown because they require superblocks that can get in the way of neighborhoods. The Heywood Garage and the Green Line facility will both be mistakes in the next couple decades as North Loop/Lowertown fill out and start pushing their boundaries.

[Tcmetro]

The reason for separation of the light rail and freight rail in the Kenilworth corridor is whether the bicycle trail will be lost or not. Basically it's a pick two of three thing.

As for the OMF, I think it is better to have it in Eden Prairie or Minnetonka from an operational standpoint. Trains would go in service from EP in the morning and out of service at EP at night. Then you wouldn't need a rush of trains reverse commuting in the 4-6 AM hours to pick up the demand from the suburbs.

As for the EP routing, anything closer to the mall is better, IMO. EP has a lot of plans for the area north of the mall (where the LRT station would be), but I think they won't be realized like the Bloomington Central plan.

As for Park and Rides, I think Mitchell Road should be axed altogether, and park and rides should be placed at SouthWest Station (double it to 2500 spaces and add direct ramps to Highway 5), OPUS, Shady Oak, Hopkins, and Louisiana Ave. Make them large so there isn't a need for park and rides at every station, then grade-separate the trains from the roads to deal with traffic issues.

[beykite]

I'm not so sure I would axe Mitchell, maybe make it a little smaller though. I think it will be a good reliever to Southwest Station. It will be able to catch a lot of people coming from the west (Chanhassen, Chaska) without overcrowding SW station, which we know will be overcrowded as it already is. Mitchell also has a lot of redevelopment potential. Across the bridge by the Buca's there are already plans for that 5 or 6 story apartment building right next to that daycare going up. Otherwise though I agree with all your points. Eden Prairies Major Center Area plan is great but like so many other plans I think it will be a pain to implement and never quiet turn out the way they expect.

[twincitizen]

Yes, for this one line it makes sense to have the facility on the western end to cut down on operational costs.

However, in the grand scheme of things, including Bottineau and any future lines (like the dream stub to West End), it makes sense to locate the facility in proximity to The Interchange. Again I will stress the importance of keeping those good-paying blue collar jobs close to the core and accessible to disadvantaged populations (sorry, getting a little David Greene-y here).

Metro Transit does already own that huge swath of land northwest of the current bus garage. Would it placate you if they simply moved back a few blocks into the armpit of the highway, and opened up the current garage site to redeveopment? Then again the garbage burner will still be there, so probably it's just a good spot for a bus/train garage

[LRV Op Dude]

The land next to Heywood is for expansion of the bus garage.

[MNdible]

Again I will stress the importance of keeping those good-paying blue collar jobs close to the core and accessible to disadvantaged populations (sorry, getting a little David Greene-y here).

If only there were some sort of train that people could take to these jobs...

[Scott Wood]

Again I will stress the importance of keeping those good-paying blue collar jobs close to the core and accessible to disadvantaged populations (sorry, getting a little David Greene-y here).

If only there were some sort of train that people could take to these jobs...

Many of the employees would need to be there either before the first morning train rolls or after the last night train stops, or close enough as to not matter.

[RailBaronYarr]

That's true, although I'm hesitant for such large facilities to locate downtown because they require superblocks that can get in the way of neighborhoods. The Heywood Garage and the Green Line facility will both be mistakes in the next couple decades as North Loop/Lowertown fill out and start pushing their boundaries.

Can't we start expecting the same mixed-use development from government/transit facilities as we do from other types of buildings? Why couldn't an O&M facility that is pretty large have housing/office space on vertical levels? Partner with private developers to reduce some of MetroTransit's acquisition/build costs. There's no reason this shouldn't at least be discussed.

If we want the core of our city to continue to be productive, have jobs, etc. this is pretty important. It also helps send the message to the community and developers that if space is needed, the answer is not simply to go to an area where land is more abundant and cheap.

I do agree with the operation benefits being close to where the line "starts" and "ends" in a day. This further underscores the intent of the SW LRT as simply a commuter train for the suburbs, my major gripe with the project to begin with.

[twincitizen]

Cool document showing the various alternatives that might be considered for the EP segment beyond the 494 loop. I think the segment labeled DEIS is the worst of the bunch. I'm assuming that it's been the leading choice so far because of costs and ease of construction, but it would certainly be the least useful. I do hope they figure out a way to get a station closer to EP Center and some of the housing in that area, while still serving the existing Park & Ride.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/126658913/Rep ... thwest-LRT

You can enlarge the image...I squinted for a solid minute before I realized that.

[mattaudio]

Couldn't they save some cash by ending it at SW Station rather than Mitchell?

[TWA]

Couldn't they save some cash by ending it at SW Station rather than Mitchell?

One would think so... but then again there is a ton of land on mitchell that is just waiting for development. I'm sure eden prairie would prefer it to end there so that area could be sold off to developers as a more high density mixed use development area.

SO Eden Prairie thinks
1. we could spend a lot of money making the SW station able to handle much more traffic, or
2. Make minimal expansion/renovation to the SW station, extend the rail another mile and then have 40+ acre clean slate to create any LRT terminus they so choose.

I'd pick option 2 too if I was EP.