Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

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Tcmetro
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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » May 30th, 2013, 8:44 am

Latest presentation from the SWLRT BAC:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/getdoc/f46a ... ation.aspx

The main topics are about narrowing down the options for the EP alignment, an overpass from the Southwest Station to Prairie Center Dr, the Nine Mile Creek bridge, Golden Triangle Stn, the 212 overpass, the 62 overpass, the Excelsior overpass, Blake Stn, Penn Stn, Van White Stn, Royalston Stn, and the Olson Hwy overpass. Also, some comments about the OMF are included.

My main concern is the lack of bus loops at the station. It feels like they really aren't planning much of an expansion to the bus system to get riders to the trains.

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Andrew_F
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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Andrew_F » May 30th, 2013, 8:59 am

•“Elevating the trail.
•“Building a shallow tunnel for LRT tracks.
•“Building deep twin tunnels, with one tunnel for each LRT track.
•“Elevating LRT tracks.”

Yeah, right. :lol:

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby LRV Op Dude » May 30th, 2013, 10:40 am

Southwest Light Rail Transit Update to St. Louis Park City Council 5/28/13

Representatives from the Metropolitan Council presented options for co-location and re-routing of freight trains as part of the Southwest LRT project to the City Council.
Blog: Old-Twin Cities Transit New-Twin Cities Transit

You Tube: Old, New

AKA: Bus Driver Dude

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Chauncey87 » May 31st, 2013, 4:34 am

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/22 ... re-routing

I am almost 98% positive I know that women in the video. She was a substitute teacher at SLP high. If I remember she was every bit as nuts then as she is now. I am starting to wonder why the Metropolitan Council thought carving up SLP's brand new turf field would be a good idea? Was it the cheapest idea? Really once I heard the idea of carving up the football field I knew this idea would be a nonstarter. Guess we all have to wait another year for the SWC. :(

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby 612transplant » May 31st, 2013, 6:47 am

As an aside, Tom Miller seems awfully concerned with the safety of nearby freight trains.....for a guy willing to STAND within feet of the tracks for a Fox9 interview :mrgreen:

David Greene
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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 7:29 am

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/22 ... re-routing

I am almost 98% positive I know that women in the video. She was a substitute teacher at SLP high. If I remember she was every bit as nuts then as she is now.
Ok, so someone advocating for her neighborhood is now "nuts?"

The hostility on this board is depressing. We're never going to get projects like SWLRT done if we can't talk to each other.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby min-chi-cbus » May 31st, 2013, 7:48 am

We can talk to eachother but most advocates (pro or con) are usually stubborn and one-sided, when people should really just be cautiously optimistic and non-judgemental.

Is this thing a for-sure "go", or is it not? I get confused between all of the back and forth. Between this line and Bottineau, both lines have to be implemented in my opinion for there to be any kind of true "system" or "network". They are an absolute "must"! The sooner the SW Corridor gets completed the better, and I can't believe it's taken this long to begin with. UnitedHealth Group, for starters, is a major supporter of this line, and I'd have assumed that they would have the muscle (or money) to sway important decision-makers to get this project done and get it done fast. I'm really surprised how slow and inefficient this process has been thus far.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Chauncey87 » May 31st, 2013, 8:18 am

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/22 ... re-routing

I am almost 98% positive I know that women in the video. She was a substitute teacher at SLP high. If I remember she was every bit as nuts then as she is now.
Ok, so someone advocating for her neighborhood is now "nuts?"

The hostility on this board is depressing. We're never going to get projects like SWLRT done if we can't talk to each other.

She confirmed it herself by saying "Its like the Metropolitan Council saying we want to turn your residential street into 394"

After watching again yes she is nuts she isn't crazy but nuts. I am now 100% I had her as a substitute teacher in HS. The video is right that about two trains going by each day (sometimes it was one or two more). One or both of the trains would run during school hours because I remember being in class and able to look out of the window and see the trains going by. Plus if there was a train coming while I was getting my McDs at lunch I would place a dime on the tracks and tried to find it after the train went by. :D
Is fox right that up to ten times the trains will run on this route? That seems to be around 20 (longer) trains a day. However with words like UP TO that really means like between 2-20 trains a day. What do you think that odds of 20 trains a day are going to happen everyday? I place my bet on between 4-8 trains a day with the chance of 20 in a day as very rare.

side note the short trains she talked about had around 10 to 15 cars if I remember right.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » May 31st, 2013, 9:15 am

Latest presentation from the SWLRT BAC:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/getdoc/f46a ... ation.aspx

The main topics are about narrowing down the options for the EP alignment, an overpass from the Southwest Station to Prairie Center Dr, the Nine Mile Creek bridge, Golden Triangle Stn, the 212 overpass, the 62 overpass, the Excelsior overpass, Blake Stn, Penn Stn, Van White Stn, Royalston Stn, and the Olson Hwy overpass. Also, some comments about the OMF are included.

My main concern is the lack of bus loops at the station. It feels like they really aren't planning much of an expansion to the bus system to get riders to the trains.
Great doc, thanks for sharing. I know some people here think running LRT all the way out to EP Center is a waste, and I somewhat agree, but I am fascinated by the multitude of alignment choices through that area. It seems clear that the DEIS route was very drafty indeed and they are leaning towards something that will have higher ridership and development potential.

Towards the end of the presentation, following the OMF site discussion, there was a letter from a law firm, representing this property owner: http://gis.co.hennepin.mn.us/property/m ... 1721140006

Not only do they support the OMF, they want to sell the property. IMO this is a damn near perfect location, being about halfway out on the line. Another plus is that it would bring much needed well-paying jobs to the Blake Road area. The only flaw I see is that it would eat up a large piece of developable land near a station, but that could be mitigated by placing the station further west of Blake Road (which might be the plan anyways). In a perfect world, the OMF would primarily front the LRT track side (north) and incorporate some kind of retail/office on the south side facing Excelsior Blvd. There's no reason we can't get creative with these facilities and build things on top of or next to them. They're remarkably quiet & clean.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Ubermoose » May 31st, 2013, 9:52 am

[Is fox right that up to ten times the trains will run on this route? That seems to be around 20 (longer) trains a day. However with words like UP TO that really means like between 2-20 trains a day. What do you think that odds of 20 trains a day are going to happen everyday? I place my bet on between 4-8 trains a day with the chance of 20 in a day as very rare.

side note the short trains she talked about had around 10 to 15 cars if I remember right.
But look at the big picture and the overall impact that the route suggested would have on the neighborhood, schools, and businesses. There might not be 10 trains a day to start, but we have been told (even by the TC&W) that 10 is a conservative number since they see their business growing in the near future. There is also the length of the trains (up to 100 cars) that will disrupt traffic in an area that is already busy and prone to long lines due to the school and activites in the area. Include the chemicals and such being pulled at higher speeds than have ever been allowed on these tracks, and the proximity to 3 schools. I think it's easy to see why there is a lot of uproar in the city.
Calling people crazy or nuts for being upset about an issue like this is why I am liking this forum less and less. Even claiming that they are NIMBYs is really not fair in my mind, considering the alternatives that have been pointed out in the arguements for co-location.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 11:13 am

Great doc, thanks for sharing. I know some people here think running LRT all the way out to EP Center is a waste, and I somewhat agree
I am struck by the number of structures and tunnels that will be required in EP. Those saying we can't afford a Penn station should take note. The Penn station is a helluva lot cheaper than what's proposed for EP.

I think the line does need to go to EP, as it's a jobs anchor and SW station is a transit hub. But no one better complain about the cost of Penn station.
Not only do they support the OMF, they want to sell the property. IMO this is a damn near perfect location,...The only flaw I see is that it would eat up a large piece of developable land near a station, but that could be mitigated by placing the station further west of Blake Road (which might be the plan anyways).
This is a *terrible* location for the OMF from an equity perspective. We'd put noise, vibration, an industrial site right next to an apartment complex full of immigrants and people of color. This is the *last* place an OMF should go.

There was lots and lots of opposition to this OMF location at the Hopkins open house. No other OMF at any of the open houses came close to the number of comments on this one, and the ones for this one were almost universally negative.

A neighborhood full of immigrants and people of color doesn't want it. End of story.
Last edited by David Greene on May 31st, 2013, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 12:20 pm

After watching again yes she is nuts she isn't crazy but nuts.
It's probably a bad idea to call a CAC alternate with whom you disagree "nuts." Doubly so if (as I assume), you are not yourself a CAC member or alternate and thus don't have much influence over her.

How do you think she'd respond? Do you think she would "see the light" and suddenly agree with all of your positions? Or do you think it likely that name-calling will only further entrench her and her supporters, who are quite numerous and influential, BTW.

The Safety in the Park folks are not nuts. On the contrary, they have very reasonable concerns that must be addressed either via co-location or mitigation. I myself haven't yet formed an opinion as to whether co-location or re-location is the best option. We have to get more information.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 12:28 pm

Not only do they support the OMF, they want to sell the property.
But note the other letter from another business very much opposed to the takings required to put an OMF in this location.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby mplsjaromir » May 31st, 2013, 12:33 pm

What does CAC mean? I am sure whatever CAC is and their supporters read every post from UrbanMSP and are very offended by the musing of one Chauncey87. Chauncey87 better say he is sorry to the hyperbole lady and to his better, a one Mr. David Greene.

Seriously, quit taking yourself so seriously on an internet forum. Its bad enough you make up stuff (3A alignment is a boon to N MPLS, sales taxes are actually not regressive) and acting like you know more than everyone else. It is really silly. People come on here to exchange ideas and look at development stories and pictures. Not to have some dork try and talk down to them.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » May 31st, 2013, 1:00 pm

CAC = Community Advisory Committee
PAC = Political...
TAC = Technical...


Let's scale the personal attacks back just a hair and recognize that different people come here for different reasons. Some folks just have hard-ons for tall buildings and come here for photo updates while others like to discuss, in depth, the progress, shortcomings, and controversies surrounding our (hopefully) growing transportation system. While this is just a lowly internet forum, that doesn't mean it has to resemble the worst of them in any way. Many of us are professionals in some facet of the planning, engineering, finance, or government sectors and do appreciate the slight degree of professionalism this forum has, at times, compared to most of the internet. Many of us are passionate about some of the issues discussed on urbanMSP and unfortunately do come off as crass, condescending, or just plain know-it-all jerks sometimes, but that doesn't mean we need to resort to name-calling and personal attacks.
Last edited by twincitizen on May 31st, 2013, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tyler
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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby Tyler » May 31st, 2013, 1:17 pm

Let's scale the personal attacks back just a hair
Some folks just have hard-ons for tall buildings
LOL!
Towns!

twincitizen
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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » May 31st, 2013, 2:30 pm

This is a *terrible* location for the OMF from an equity perspective. We'd put noise, vibration, an industrial site right next to an apartment complex full of immigrants and people of color. This is the *last* place an OMF should go.
Um, isn't it currently an industrial site, in a neighborhood that is a smattering of light industry, warehousing, and residential? The OMF really isn't that loud of an operation and certainly can't be worse than
a. The LRT & freight lines themselves
b. Busy Excelsior Blvd
c. Supervalu trucks backing up at all hours at any of their numerous facilities in the area

Would it suck for the ONE apartment complex that it's right next door to? Probably a little. But it would also bring a ton of operator, maintenance, and supervisor jobs to the area, all of which pay near $50k and up with amazing benefits.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 2:53 pm

[But it would also bring a ton of operator, maintenance, and supervisor jobs to the area, all of which pay near $50k and up with amazing benefits.
Believe me, I understand your point and a willing seller and relatively weak political influence by residents make this a tempting spot. But that's exactly what drove us to ram I-94 through Rondo and do any number of other damaging things to communities of color.

At some point that has to stop.

Given the numerous other viable locations for an OMF, it doesn't make sense to risk a lawsuit the Met Council would likely lose, or at least spend a ton of money to fight.

In my opinion, an OMF at the end of the line in EP makes much more sense. If we're building a huge amount of infrastructure to bring rail out there anyway, siting an OMF there not only would minimize residential impacts, it could serve an extension of the line to Chaska or beyond later.

It's interesting to note that the wealthy residents of Interlachen Park are up in arms about this. So there is some political weight in opposition. It's kind of a neat joining of very different communities uniting around a common self-interest.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » May 31st, 2013, 2:59 pm

The sooner the SW Corridor gets completed the better, and I can't believe it's taken this long to begin with.
I don't think this problem has much to do with the freight issue (at least not yet). This is the federal process. Yep, it's ugly and slow. That's why Oberstar tried to introduce reform to streamline it.

Funding is the other problem. We literally don't have the money to build SW LRT and Bottineau LRT. CTIB has bonded against all of their sales tax already. That's why the legislature's inaction was so very frustrating.
UnitedHealth Group, for starters, is a major supporter of this line, and I'd have assumed that they would have the muscle (or money) to sway important decision-makers to get this project done and get it done fast.
This is a good lesson in politics. Big business always talks a good talk but rarely will put any money into getting things done as long as it believe the public will foot the bill later.

That's why I can't stand David Olson and his smug chamber of commerce. They aren't looking out for businesses. They're looking out for large corporations and blocking progress for all of us.

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Re: Southwest Corridor (Green Line Extension)

Postby VAStationDude » June 1st, 2013, 7:20 am

Comparing the location of the OMF next to an apartment building to blasting I-94 through Saint Paul really does a disservice to the people of Saint Paul who have had to suffer with the massive gash through their neighborhood. Let's not diminish actual widespread distruction and pain with wild analogies. Not everything is Rondo.


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