Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[FISHMANPET]

Honestly, I've been in favor of Matt's Streets.mn idea (https://streets.mn/2014/02/11/southwest-lrt-plan/) if for no other reason than it lays out a system of rail lines that can be put together to provide varying transit services, rather than carving these lines into diamond and hope they serve all purposes.

Chicago doesn't have "lines" they just have a ton of railroad track that they can put together in all manner of ways to provide services.

[David Greene]

the core cities can be very self obsessed almost to a fault. and i say this as lifelong south mpls resident.

Let's remember that the city isn't the only party here. The Met Council and Hennepin County both need to come to the negotiating table and offer things to Minneapolis. Minneapolis is not just going to roll over and say, "yes," nor should it. The city should extract as much out of this deal as possible, focusing on increasing racial and economic equity. Just like Mayor Hodges, the Met Council too has declared equity to be a priority. Now's the time to walk the walk.

[bubzki2]

Strib reports tunnels vote passed on SW 14-2

http://www.startribune.com/local/west/254566841.html

[Anondson]

And the council press release. http://content.govdelivery.com/accounts ... ins/b035d2

[twincitizen]

Southwest LRT decision time: f***, marry, or kill?

[Southside]

As wasteful and silly as the shallow tunnels might be, it isn't in the City's best interest to kill the project. If I had Mayor Hodges ear, I would recommend her to offer approval in exchange for some pro-City infrastructure, perhaps a guarantee that the Midtown line would open be prioritized and open at the same time as the Southwest line and the inclusion of a station at 21st Street.

I completely agree with Fishmanpet's note about lines and services. In fact, cities with substantial rail infrastructure change services all the time (see London's Circle Line, NYCs M Train, Chicago's Pink/Blue Line for recent examples). With substantial infrastructure, services can be created to meet needs.

[twincitizen]

That all sounds familiar. And I agree completely. The time for idealism is over, unless Minneapolis has an 11th hour hail mary ace up their sleeve.

[If] I were advising Mayor Hodges at this point here is what I would suggest.

1. Get the everyone on the same page, everyone from the Mayor's office, City Council, Parks and Rec Board, everybody and make sure there isn't an millimeter of daylight between your public statements.
2. Go to the residents of Kenilworth and apologize for the outcome, you did every thing you could but you lost, it happens. (Also this is the part where you are glad you aren't up for election until 2017)
3. Then go to the Met Council and cut the best deal that you can for municipal consent, I personally like getting Midtown done (in writing, with firm deadlines and consequences if those deadlines aren't hit) and Met Council approval and unwavering support on Nicollet-Central. If that takes losing a tunnel so be it.
4.Then work with Barb Johnson to whip a unanimous vote for municipal consent for SWLRT.
5.Once all that's done and you look the adult in the room turn both barrels on SLP and just unload on them continuously, mercilessly and relentlessly, dare them to with hold municipal consent and kill the line, call them out for acting like children, not negotiating in good faith.
6. Get the damn line built.

Lisa Goodman will never vote yes, so forget that unanimous vote. #5 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

But yeah, Minneapolis needs to
1. Secure Midtown Corridor as the next line to be built ASAP. Southwest just isn't going to work without it.
2. Get Met Council on board with the Nicollet streetcar project (and cut half the stops downtown, but that's another topic entirely)
3. Kill the northern tunnel (and stupid Mitchell Road Station in EP) as cost saving measures, while ensuring that 21st St Station gets built.

[Silophant]

5.Once all that's done and you look the adult in the room turn both barrels on SLP and just unload on them continuously, mercilessly and relentlessly, dare them to with hold municipal consent and kill the line, call them out for acting like children, not negotiating in good faith.

Lisa Goodman will never yes, so forget that unanimous vote. #5 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd have to dare SLP to kill the line, given that they get everything they want in this scenario.

And, I'm not sure why it would help to have a unanimous CC vote. It's not like anyone's going to forget that Minneapolis is getting screwed, even if they do get both Nicollet-Central and the Midtown lines as compensation, so pretending everyone's all for it won't help. At least, IMO.

[BigIdeasGuy]

Really #5 was optional, I just think that SLP after watching and listening to actions and statements during this entire Wagnarian Opera they deserved to be called out. Kenilworth didn't behave much better but they lost so they don't get ripped. Not to mention daring SLP to withhold consent and kill SW LRT over some little puts them in a bad spot especially if they still aren't happy with something.

You're also right that Goodman isn't going to vote for it no matter what, that's the reality. But Johnson and Hodges still have to whip the vote and run up the score to 12-1, 11-2 whatever. I t show unity and strength, getting this SW LRT through on a 7-6 isn't going to be reassuring to anyone, plus it will only weaken Hodges position when she tries to get Midtown or whatever.

Oh and I forgot step 6. Make sure whatever staffer(s) decided Kenilworth is a good place to run LRT is fired. Then fired again just be sure they can't make anymore decisions.

[twincitizen]

So what happens to the freight trains during construction?

I realize the LRT tunnel is going to be under the bike/ped paths and the freight track will be next to the tunnel, but the tracks are going to be disturbed for a not insignificant length of time. Word was that the Kenilworth tracks were in pretty bad shape already and need to be replaced regardless of the LRT project. How does that all work? Where does the freight traffic go during the disruption?

[mister.shoes]

SLP

[papazim]

Freight rail will remain in Kenilworth during construction of the tunnels. The tracks will probably need to be shifted to the west a few feet in some areas, but the plans are to keep operations there while the tunnels are being dug.

[mattaudio]

They'll probably switch to the BNSF at Appleton or Granite Falls for a time, and the project will probably pay them for the added expense.

[Archiapolis]

Strib article:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/sta ... 66841.html

[sad panda]

So what happens to the freight trains during construction?

From the planning documents and older IMPS revisions I've seen, the first part of the construction is to do the earthwork and build the new freight tracks. Then they can move the freight over and tear out the old tracks.

Really #5 was optional, I just think that SLP after watching and listening to actions and statements during this entire Wagnarian Opera they deserved to be called out.

Called out for what? For joining in a preliminary agreement with the county, doing most everything expected of them in said agreement while the county doesn't do any of it's part? And you blame SLP for that?

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd have to dare SLP to kill the line, given that they get everything they want in this scenario.

SLP didn't get 'everything': The Louisiana station isn't closer to Methodist Hospital, part of the Skunk Hollow switching wye is staying, and Wooddale and Beltline don't have grade separation to name just a few. What wins did SLP get? The freight stays in the least disruptive location and the OMF went to Hopkins. One could argue that the southern connection for the freight is a win but I personally think it's more of a side effect of the CP/HCRRA land swap (which is a win for the line as a whole).

Minneapolis also dodged the OMF, has no Park and Rides, has no property takings, has land preserved at West Lake for a connection to Midtown, gets grade separation at Cedar Lake Road, $150 million worth of mitigation in the form of tunnels, and so on.

[mattaudio]

Not sure why the rumor is spreading that SLP will get trains during construction. That's not even possible, except for a complicated three point switching maneuver, using existing Skunk Hollow trackage.

[mister.shoes]

I was joking in my post. If anyone else is spreading the rumor, it's independent of me

[downfall]

Municipal Consent plans are online:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/Transportat ... cipal.aspx

[woofner]

You're also right that Goodman isn't going to vote for it no matter what, that's the reality.

Palmisano is also a guaranteed no vote. The vote will swing on Hodges' decision, and I don't think it's possible for anyone outside her circle to predict that. Obviously she's gotten a lot of pressure from the Kenilworth people who fund her campaigns, but she also says lots of pretty things about how cities are cool or something.

Secure Midtown Corridor as the next line to be built ASAP. Southwest just isn't going to work without it.

The problem with this is that th Met Council is behind Midtown. According to the schedule in the presentation in the 3/24 Met Council Transportation committee meeting, they could apply for Small Starts as soon as 2015, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't if Minneapolis wasn't making a stink. So if they pretend they're going to do so just to give the city council some cover, it will be an entirely political maneuver, and a magnanimous one given the shit Hodges has been squirting on the Met Council in the last few weeks.

Nicollet/Central is a more believable "bargaining chip" given its lack of utility for the region. On the other hand, the Met Council is proposing something very similar for the corridor, just 10x cheaper, so it doesn't exactly pass the smell test either.

SLP didn't get 'everything': The Louisiana station isn't closer to Methodist Hospital, part of the Skunk Hollow switching wye is staying, and Wooddale and Beltline don't have grade separation to name just a few.

What you're talking about here is peanuts compared to the freight rail reroute. If you look back to last summer, every municipality on the line wanted betterments like these, and very few got them due to the already high cost of the line. You're right though, that Minneapolis got way more than they deserved, and still cried like sleepy children about it, and should be ashamed of their behavior.

[David Greene]

So what happens to the freight trains during construction?

I realize the LRT tunnel is going to be under the bike/ped paths and the freight track will be next to the tunnel, but the tracks are going to be disturbed for a not insignificant length of time. Word was that the Kenilworth tracks were in pretty bad shape already and need to be replaced regardless of the LRT project. How does that all work? Where does the freight traffic go during the disruption?

It gets moved 40 ft. west and then back after construction is completed. I thought the tracks were replaced a fey years ago with CWR.