Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[Minneapolisite]

Holy melodrama. SW as currently proposed is not some tragedy, nor is it "bad" transit.

It's also not perfect.

But it will help tens of thousands of people get around the metro more easily every single day. And it will change development patterns all along the line for the better.

Someone needs to visit DC. This will do nothing to change development patterns in a meaningful way. If the SW burbs adopt smart growth policies at least on par with St Paul as a condition to getting SWLRT then it will change things in a meaningful way. If you build LRT out into sprawling suburbia unchecked you get a lot more sprawl. I know a guy who lived in a typical car-oriented suburban apartment complex in VA and drove in with him to DC: 40 minutes on the highway with slowed traffic at 2PM and 12 travel lanes just to reach the end of the blue line: that was what his daily commute was like. That's what this LRT plan will do, so if you think that doesn't sound "bad" I don't know what will. New Eden Prairies and all the jobs out there ith them will spread away from the end of the SWLRT and be totally unreachable for transit riders.

And why is the "last mile" issue for city residents heading out to the burbs just glossed over? SWLRT isn't going to provide access to all these jobs boosters like to talk about because the LRT drops you off only part of the way there and with no sidewalks, bike lanes/paths, or bus service (if it exists and runs 30-60 minute intervals if it does), how does this benefit city residents? In some cases even if you can rely on a bus to drop you of directly to your workplace in the winter you'll likely only be able to walk on the road with 50 MPH traffic because the shelter is snowed in with nowhere else to walk. I still have to wait 20-30 or minutes depending on where in Mpls I want to go and if I want to go out during the evening I get punished and have to wait 30-60 minutes. How about help moving us hundreds of thousands of people around our cities?

[kiliff75]

Nice satire on the SWLRT in the Strib:

http://www.startribune.com/local/250475861.html

The current mood in Minneapolis seems to be this: Everything should stay the way it is but also things should somehow magically get better. More people? Great! But build that apartment building elsewhere. More transit? Fabulous! Transit is awesome. But I don’t want to see it, hear it, smell it, or see slight vibrations in my coffee because an essential component of a citywide rail network is passing by.

If this attitude had prevailed in the previous century, the airport would never have been built. It would be 30 miles out in the countryside, and even then planes would have to land 10 miles way and taxi in at 5 mph.

Through a tunnel.

[Tcmetro]

Holy melodrama. SW as currently proposed is not some tragedy, nor is it "bad" transit.

It's also not perfect.

But it will help tens of thousands of people get around the metro more easily every single day. And it will change development patterns all along the line for the better.

Someone needs to visit DC. This will do nothing to change development patterns in a meaningful way. If the SW burbs adopt smart growth policies at least on par with St Paul as a condition to getting SWLRT then it will change things in a meaningful way. If you build LRT out into sprawling suburbia unchecked you get a lot more sprawl. I know a guy who lived in a typical car-oriented suburban apartment complex in VA and drove in with him to DC: 40 minutes on the highway with slowed traffic at 2PM and 12 travel lanes just to reach the end of the blue line: that was what his daily commute was like. That's what this LRT plan will do, so if you think that doesn't sound "bad" I don't know what will. New Eden Prairies and all the jobs out there ith them will spread away from the end of the SWLRT and be totally unreachable for transit riders.

And why is the "last mile" issue for city residents heading out to the burbs just glossed over? SWLRT isn't going to provide access to all these jobs boosters like to talk about because the LRT drops you off only part of the way there and with no sidewalks, bike lanes/paths, or bus service (if it exists and runs 30-60 minute intervals if it does), how does this benefit city residents? In some cases even if you can rely on a bus to drop you of directly to your workplace in the winter you'll likely only be able to walk on the road with 50 MPH traffic because the shelter is snowed in with nowhere else to walk. I still have to wait 20-30 or minutes depending on where in Mpls I want to go and if I want to go out during the evening I get punished and have to wait 30-60 minutes. How about help moving us hundreds of thousands of people around our cities?

Are you unaware of the development occuring around the West Lake, BeltLine, and Wooddale stations? Or the plans for the Hopkins, Blake Road, and Shady Oak Road stations? There is a huge push to redevelop these areas into walkable centers with 4-6 story apartment buildings. The rest of the stations are all in the largest job centers in the metro outside of the downtowns, the airport, and the U. To say that this line will neither attract development or have a decent ridership is incorrect.

Going back to restudy the line, to determine whether 3C is a good idea or not, will take at least 10 years. And there's no guarantee that restudying the line will actually change anything. In the meantime, Minneapolis is plowing ahead with the Nicollet Streetcar project and Metro Transit is pushing forward with the Midtown LRT. A reevaluation of SWLRT will also require a reevaluation of those lines. Considering how much work has been put into those lines, and how much is in the works, I doubt that will ever happen.

[AccordGuy]

I'm all for scrapping this whole SW LRT line completely until we have a better route that benefits more people. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the original proposed routes designed to send the LRT south along Nicollet to the lake street area, and then west on the midtown greenway, eventually meeting up with the tracks further to the SW ? It seems like the denser population along that route would actually make use of it more often than the daily commuters and Twins/Vikings game day riders from the SW suburbs. I love LRT, and I think its great that we have it, but do we really need this line ?

[gpete]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the original proposed routes designed to send the LRT south along Nicollet to the lake street area, and then west on the midtown greenway, eventually meeting up with the tracks further to the SW ?

A joke? Funniest 3C reference I've seen in a while...


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[RailBaronYarr]

Someone needs to visit DC...

Are you unaware of the development occuring around the West Lake, BeltLine, and Wooddale stations?...

The answer is almost certainly in between these 2, as far as I can see. EP is doubling down with more structured parking surrounded by surface parking surrounded by auto-oriented strip malls with an apartment building down a stroad at the SW Station. Many of the non-Mpls stations will have parking directly adjacent to the station per planning documents. Some is structured, some surface (easier to develop). But knowing overall development and transportation patterns in non-SLP and downtown Hopkins areas, it will be difficult to attract the type of successful, walkable transit villages we're all rooting for once (free) parking is entrenched. To illustrate this: how long has SW Transit been running frequent peak hour bus lines to downtown and see what we have surrounding the stations development-wise - to the suburbs, SWLRT is more a commuter line not an all-day/week mobility option.

Minneapolisite is right to make comparisons to suburban VA Metro stations. We're hoping for smaller-scaled versions of Clarendon (very walkable with many amenities even if autos still have huge presence) when in reality we'll get something that looks more like Van Dorn (metro station along freeway and auto-oriented industrial jobs). He's also right to criticize the final mile problem. Yes, there are many many jobs surrounding the stations, but getting to them will be difficult given the lack of street grid, dangerous given passing cars and sub-optimal pedestrian amenities, or simply unpleasant.

That said, pragmatically speaking, it is hard to ask areas to grow in a transit-supportive way first without transit. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems that an initial spur to Shady Oak Station that hits the already urbanizing areas could capitalize on and enhance those areas (plus at least one of 3 major job centers in SOS) while EP actually makes some meaningful transit-supportive progress. But that isn't politically possible to secure CTIB funding and support. So, bleh, no answer from me.

[Tcmetro]

The problem with ending LRT at Shady Oak is that all the job centers are missed. OPUS and City West have all the office jobs, Golden Triangle is all the industrial jobs, EP Town Center is the retail jobs and SW Station is for park and ride and bus transfers deeper into the suburbs.

We should remember that the vast majority of transit trips are for commuting to work, and missing what is one of the densest job centers in the metro is a huge mistake.

Also we should take into account the fact that SW LRT is likely the best performing line of any suburban transit line. No other suburban corridor can match the number of jobs and residences within a short distance. The southwest suburbs also have the status of being the favored quarter. Money flows in the southwest, and that will mean redevelopment is going to happen.

We could pull funding from SW LRT, but for what purpose? To help fund an urban network of subways that haven't even gone under study and will likely be too expensive for the politicians to even consider funding? We have to remember that the funding is in the hands of the Met Council, the State, the Feds, etc, who all see regional travel as the most important function of travel. SW LRT is a terrific project from those standards. All the parties involved want to see SW LRT happen. The other options for the SW LRT funding are Bottineau, Gateway, Rush Line, 35W North BRT, Red Rock BRT. Those projects all model to be worse performers than SW LRT.

It's not perfect. Even I prefer 3C. But with Nicollet Streetcars and Midtown LRT advancing, I see that as placing the final resting stone for the 3C alignment. None of the powers that be will be interested in further sending limited public transportation dollars to the same parts of the city.

These are my reasons for supporting 3A SW LRT. It's either an imperfect project or no project. I believe that it's the best compromise, and that we can at least make the best of SW LRT instead of having no LRT.

[AccordGuy]

Not a joke. Check out this map.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009 ... to-uptown/

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the original proposed routes designed to send the LRT south along Nicollet to the lake street area, and then west on the midtown greenway, eventually meeting up with the tracks further to the SW ?

A joke? Funniest 3C reference I've seen in a while...


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[MNdible]

AccordGuy, it's a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that the 3C vs. 3A alignments have been debated absolutely TO DEATH for the last seven years on this forum and its predecessor (and probably its predecessor too). But you're new here, so you may not have known that.

[AccordGuy]

It's just maddening to see how this is all playing out when I read the paper, or see a news story about the surface tracks vs. tunneling debate. I'm aware of all the debate that has gone on in the past as I've been reading urbanmsp, and it's predecessor for a long time, I just don't comment on these discussions very often. The map I posted just makes more sense so I can see why it was rejected.

AccordGuy, it's a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that the 3C vs. 3A alignments have been debated absolutely TO DEATH for the last seven years on this forum and its predecessor (and probably its predecessor too). But you're new here, so you may not have known that.

[Mdcastle]

I looked at the map and the commentary and I don't agree with all of the points. Whether we want to take the long, slow route through the city to favor city residents at the expense of suburban residents is a fair discussion, but the idea that there's hoards of people from the suburbs wanting to go to uptown isn't necessarily true. I take my bicycle or rollerblades to Calhoun several times a week in the summer, but as far as being in the uptown urban area, it's been probably 15 years since I've been there other than just driving all the way through in a car because there's nothing there that interests me. None of the people I know go there regularly either, but a lot of them work downtown or go to school at the U, so I'd think if you ask them they'd want Kennilworth to get there faster.

[mark]

I took a course and interned in DC and I lived across the street from Van Dorn... with my car parked ~1 mile away to save $50/mo. I got around without a car just fine, as did my classmates who lived much further from the station than me. Kangnam it ain't, but I find the notion that the area is hostile to pedestrians absurd.

[RailBaronYarr]

I don't think I ever said VD was hostile to pedestrians, just that it is auto-oriented. It literally abuts a freeway (ok, no, there are some small industrial buildings between it and the freeway), you can only leave the station to the north, and yes there is housing and amenities further up the stroad. I only used it as an example since it was on my mind from visiting my wife's former home in VA 2 years back. The last stop on the line (Franconia-Springfield) is even more auto-oriented, but even VD has a WalkScore of 55 - pretty bad for a station that opened 23 years ago. And, I don't think stations along a $1.6B line should have a bar set as low as "not pedestrian hostile" - let's go for something a little better with a transportation option that's designed to support an environment where people naturally walk or bike around for the majority of their daily needs. If the line is built (heck, if it isn't), I'm rooting for EP to get these type of places and street designs. I'm just veeery skeptical.

[Sara Bergen]

Tomorrow (3/19/14) CTIB (county transit improvement board) is meeting in St. Paul at 8:30. Is anyone planning on going? Or, does anyone know if they record these meetings and how to access any recordings?

At the last CMC (corridor management committee) meeting it was said that Mark Fuhhrman (met council dude in charge of SWLRT) was going to present an update re SWLRT developments, including the discussion of the recently proposed deeper shallow tunnel. From Commissioner Look's comments at the CMC, I inferred (perhaps incorrectly), that CTIB would provide Mr. Fuhrman its opinion (or directive) on whether or not the met council should proceed with additional research into the deeper shallow tunnel option. With it recently issuing a drop dead date for SWLRT to crap or get off the pot, I am thinking maybe CTIB is finding its voice and may weigh in on the extra cost and time associated with the deeper shallow tunnel.

I can't go due to...gasp...work, but if anyone can get there or somehow provide and update about this agenda item it would be much appreciated.

http://www.mnrides.org/calendar

[froggie]

Minneapolisite is right to make comparisons to suburban VA Metro stations. We're hoping for smaller-scaled versions of Clarendon (very walkable with many amenities even if autos still have huge presence) when in reality we'll get something that looks more like Van Dorn (metro station along freeway and auto-oriented industrial jobs).

Even Fairfax County is starting to come around....just look at Dunn Loring (though Gallows Rd is still a pain, but that's more VDOT than the county). And Huntington has been trying for years to densify next to the metro and become more walkable (saw plenty of this when I was a member of the Huntington Community Association).

If a suburban-hell county such as Fairfax can come around, surely local municipalities such as Minnetonka and Eden Prairie can come around. But it isn't going to happen without the rail...that's the catalyst, just as the Orange Line was the catalyst for Arlington County, VA from Ballston to Rosslyn.

[mattaudio]

But much of that corridor was developed in the pre-car era... it was de-intensified during the car pre-Metro era, and significantly intensified during the Metro era. Not sure the comparison is completely valid.

[TroyGBiv]

DC's Metro is more of an anomaly - it was built 100% with Federal dollars, it was designed primarily to support the actual city of DC. They did not use the same criteria that the rest of the country had to to qualify for Fed funding. Much of the problem was called by the massive speed with which the Virginia suburbs grew - Tyson's Corners was literally at country corner store (google it - it is funny) and within a mere decade or so had become a city of a million or more people and a downtown that at the time rivaled many larger, older American cities. There are definitely problems with the DC Metro - but name a transit system that hasn't had its share of dissent. I hope they move forward and resolve this last mile issue - I voted for it to run through Whittier on the street level just around the corner from my house.

[kellonathan]

It's out!

Independent Consultant Final Reports Available
The independent consultants’ final reports on freight rail location alternatives and water resources impacts, as well as the final Kenilworth tree inventory, are now available for your reference. You can find the final reports on the project’s website (SWLRT.ORG) through the following link:

http://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/ ... ering.aspx

[BigIdeasGuy]

I've been messing around in my head and with Google Maps to come up with an idea to solve the SWLRT puzzle. In full discloser I think the current alignment is stupid and the person who came up with it fired, and then fired again just to be safe and to make the point how stupid the idea was to begin with. I'm also not a huge fan of 3C because I think it cuts to far back to the east and is rather inefficient times wise to me. So what I came up with is the following headed from the Royalston Station to the West Lake Station.

Headed south from the Royalston Station on 12th St crossing 394 on a new bridge.
Turn southwest onto Hennepin Ave from 12th St at grade with a station located in the center at or around 16th St
Then follow Hennepin as it turns south at I-94 including a station in the grass median across from the Walker Art Center.
Follow Hennepin Ave south using the current north bound Hennepin Ave viaduct to slip under the fly overs through the cluster f*$@ that is the Virginia Triangle, widening the current NB Hennepin viaduct to continue to carry traffic and LRT.
Station in center at Franklin Ave then continue down Hennepin Ave at grade to the Midtown Greenway were you slip down to the greenway where a new transit hub is located.
Follow the Midtown Greenway between Lake of the Isles and Lake Calhoun to the currently proposed West Lake Station.

I'm think the exact number of stations and the there locations need some fine tuning but I think this is a winning solution all around.
1. It gets LRT out of where it shouldn't be (I.E. Kenilworth)
2. Gets it where people are and want to be (Uptown)
3. While not as fast as Kenilworth it saves time over 3C
4. It get's through the bottleneck of Hennepin and Lyndale without completely killing any flow of traffic
5. Leaves open the possibility of Midtown and Nicollet Streetcar.

I will admit it will end on street parking on Hennepin between Franklin and the Midtown Greenway but if can get through it on University then can power through it on Hennepin as well. The plan would also require the relocating the supports of the three fly overs that cross above the NB Hennepin viaduct. I've also included a map that will hopefully provide a visual for everybody. Now feel free to pick away at the idea and tell me why it won't work.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit? ... gRNuy2a9Ts

[David Greene]

Now feel free to pick away at the idea and tell me why it won't work.

Cost and the fact that Hennepin is nowhere near as wide as University?