Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

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Korh
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » February 5th, 2020, 4:11 pm

I think I remember some people saying that the frequency of the 612 might be upped from a bus every 30 mins to one every 15 as well as maybe rerouting it in some of the circles, but I haven't really seen an official statement.
I'm also somewhat expecting the 12 to be cut but that's mainly due to the E line kinda making it redundant to have a non stop service from downtown to uptown during rush hour.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 5th, 2020, 4:58 pm

I think it might make sense to cut the length of the #12 and #17 routes and have them terminate at the Uptown Transit Center, obviously passing the West Lake Station en route. But with those cuts to length, I'd like to see an increase in frequency. Despite the lack of connections between different areas, the underlying fabric of the St. Louis Park-Hopkins area is still a grid, and the density of the area is similar to southwest Minneapolis. That's land use that can support good transit. Both Minnetonka and Excelsior corridors should get at least peak headways of ten minutes and off-peak headways of fifteen minutes. Trial that for a few years (along with the circumferential routes that I proposed on the last page) and see what happens.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby xandrex » February 6th, 2020, 4:05 pm

I think it might make sense to cut the length of the #12 and #17 routes and have them terminate at the Uptown Transit Center, obviously passing the West Lake Station en route. But with those cuts to length, I'd like to see an increase in frequency. Despite the lack of connections between different areas, the underlying fabric of the St. Louis Park-Hopkins area is still a grid, and the density of the area is similar to southwest Minneapolis. That's land use that can support good transit. Both Minnetonka and Excelsior corridors should get at least peak headways of ten minutes and off-peak headways of fifteen minutes. Trial that for a few years (along with the circumferential routes that I proposed on the last page) and see what happens.
Somewhat off of the topic, but ending the 17 at Uptown Transit Station would be an effective cut in service for decent chunks of the Wedge and (perhaps more so) Whittier, no? I'm maybe biased, as I live along 24th, but I wouldn't want to see the 17 go away, especially since your suggestion takes it away from areas that really won't benefit from easy access to SWLRT.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby MSPtoMKE » February 6th, 2020, 11:47 pm

Yes, the 12 could be eliminated, with the 612 getting cut back to West Lake station, but I wouldn’t want to see the 17 cut back, it is a useful through neighborhoods south of downtown.

They did release a concept bus plan in the environmental analysis phase, but obviously it was very preliminary. I wouldn’t expect as ambitious a restructure to occur as when the Green Line first opened. They had a fair amount of bus service hours to reallocate, with the 50 getting eliminated and the 16 and 94 being reduced significantly. This allowed a more robust grid of routes to connect to the Green Line in St. Paul. There do not seem to be as many opportunities to cut redundant bus capacity with the opening of the Southwest Corridor, which leaves fewer service hours to reallocate to connecting routes.
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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 7th, 2020, 8:56 am

I think it might make sense to cut the length of the #12 and #17 routes and have them terminate at the Uptown Transit Center, obviously passing the West Lake Station en route. But with those cuts to length, I'd like to see an increase in frequency. Despite the lack of connections between different areas, the underlying fabric of the St. Louis Park-Hopkins area is still a grid, and the density of the area is similar to southwest Minneapolis. That's land use that can support good transit. Both Minnetonka and Excelsior corridors should get at least peak headways of ten minutes and off-peak headways of fifteen minutes. Trial that for a few years (along with the circumferential routes that I proposed on the last page) and see what happens.
Somewhat off of the topic, but ending the 17 at Uptown Transit Station would be an effective cut in service for decent chunks of the Wedge and (perhaps more so) Whittier, no? I'm maybe biased, as I live along 24th, but I wouldn't want to see the 17 go away, especially since your suggestion takes it away from areas that really won't benefit from easy access to SWLRT.
Yes it would. It would essentially trade extra frequency down Hennepin for more frequency in the immediate western suburbs. I think the gains might outweigh the losses (remember that the E Line will come through at about the same time, and Hennepin will still get good frequency between that route and the new #6), but it's not a totally obvious thing. Would require some close study.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby xandrex » February 7th, 2020, 12:05 pm

Yes it would. It would essentially trade extra frequency down Hennepin for more frequency in the immediate western suburbs. I think the gains might outweigh the losses (remember that the E Line will come through at about the same time, and Hennepin will still get good frequency between that route and the new #6), but it's not a totally obvious thing. Would require some close study.
I'm less concerned about Hennepin and most of the Wedge neighborhood (which indeed will benefit from the E Line) than I am about people living in Whittier, especially folks (like myself - so, like I said, maybe some self-interest at play here) along the 24th Street corridor. In one of the densest neighborhoods in the city, you force folks to walk to Lyndale or Nicollet (which, north of 24th now has less service because of the cut) to catch a bus. And you remove a one-seat ride from Stevens Square/Whittier to Uptown.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that if we're going to restructure suburban bus service to make using SWLRT feasible for more people (and we should!), I'd rather it not be at the expense of urban riders who are already dealing with mediocre service.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » February 7th, 2020, 12:15 pm

I could see SWLRT-related bus route restructuring being the impetus for breaking the 17 into separate pieces, rather than eliminating service entirely on any portion of the route. Avoiding duplication of service between Uptown and West Lake LRT (B Line, 12, etc.), while also not wasting precious service hours stuck in the Lake/CSAH-25/Excelsior bottleneck, are good reasons to consider breaking the route. One seat rides between Uptown and the Nicollet side of Loring / Stevens Square do seem to be worth keeping. One seat local bus rides from near-downtown to St. Louis Park probably are not. Breaking the 17 in half at West Lake / France could make sense, as people will be able to transfer to LRT or the B Line (e.g. connections to downtown or Uptown)

SWLRT should result in pretty massive changes to local bus service in St. Louis Park and Hopkins, but maybe less so inside Mpls city limits. Just as was done for the Green Line in St. Paul, bus service should become more north-south oriented, getting people to the train stations, rather than running lots of parallel east-west service.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » February 8th, 2020, 9:30 am

A bus concept plan was put together for SW LRT in the environmental process. It was written in 2014 and updated in 2015.

SW LRT bus plan: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... n-Tec.aspx

2017 SIP: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... ements.pdf

The main proposals from that plan were:
  • 2: (From 2017 Service Improvement Plan) Extend to 21st St station.
  • 5: "F" branch replaced with Rt. 26. Local service operates between Brooklyn Center and 66th St and D Line operates between Brooklyn Center and MOA.
  • 9: (Most of these changes have already happened with the West End bus plan in 2017) Simplify service, eliminate "H" branch to 26th St, provide service every 15-20 min peak and every 30 min offpeak.
  • 12: Eliminated.
  • 17: Knollwood trips extended to Blake Rd Station. Service west of France increased to 10 min peak, 15 min midday/Saturday. "F" trips to Beltline Bl and 36th St eliminated.
  • 21: Extend to West Lake Station, every 20 minutes. (B Line planning envisions that route operating to West Lake Station, on all trips)
  • 25: Would serve 21st St and West Lake Stations (the West End bus plan changed the end of the 25 from West Lake station area to the Jewish Community Center on Cedar Lake Road to replace the 9H).
  • 26: Circular route from Penn Station/394 via 394, Van White, Plymouth, Lyndale, 26th, and Penn. This route would operate every 30 minutes, daily. This route would replace the 5F branch that serves 26th Ave N. (This route plan was updated in the 2017 Service Implementation Plan to operate as a line - not a loop - from 7th St Garage via 8th, Hennepin, Dunwoody, Van White, Plymouth, Lyndale, and 26th to W Broadway).
  • 46: (From 2017 Service Improvement Plan). Extend peak and midday weekday service to Opus station.
  • 601: New route between West Lake Station and Louisiana/394. One branch would operate West Lake station, France, 26th, Barry, 100 Frontage, Cedar Lake, Park Pl, Wayzata to terminal at Louisiana/394. The other branch would operate West Lake station, France, Ewing, Wayzata, West End, Wayzata, to terminal at Louisiana/394. The branches would operate different directions at different times of day. The 26th St branch would operate EB in AM and WB in PM. The Wayzata branch would operate WB in AM and EB in PM. Every 30 minutes, daily.
  • 602: New route between West Lake Station and Southdale via France Ave. Every 30 minutes, daily.
  • 604: Extended to Beltline Station on the south end. Improve to 30 min daily.
  • 605: New route between Downtown Hopkins station and Beltline station. Replaces Rt 615. Operates every 30 min daily.
  • 612: Operates from 17th/Mainstreet to West Lake Station via Excelsior. Every 15 min weekday and Saturday, every 30 min Sunday.
  • 614: (This route was eliminated in 2019) Rt 614 would operate between Ridgedale and Downtown Hopkins station, via Plymouth, Minnetonka, CR 101, Covington, Vine Hill, Stratford, Boarshead, Delton, and Excelsior. Replaces Rt 670. Every 30 min peak, 60 min offpeak, daily.
  • 615: Extended on north end from Ridgedale to Carlson Center, and south along 11th Ave to Opus station, replacing Rt. 612. Offpeak service would still end at Ridgedale. Every 30 mins, daily.
  • 616: Opus station to Minnetonka Corporate Center via Bren, Rowland, and Clearwater. Every 30 mins, peak only.
  • 668: Eliminated.
  • 670: Eliminated.
  • SW 630N: Daytime circulator route to northern Golden Triangle. 15 min peak, 30 min offpeak, M-F.
  • SW 630S: Daytime circulator route to southern Golden Triangle. 15 min peak, 30 min offpeak, M-F.
  • SW 631: Southwest station to Eden Prairie Town Center and Hennepin Tech College. 30 min peak, 60 min offpeak, M-F.
  • SW 632: Southwest station to Eden Prairie Center. Every 30 mins, daily.
  • SW 633: Southwest station to Baker Rd/Hwy 62. Peak only.
  • SW 634: Southwest station to Valley View Rd to Dell Rd/Hwy 62. Peak only.
  • SW 635A: Southwest station to Franlo/Buckingham. Peak only.
  • SW 635B: Southwest station to Homewards Hills. Peak only.
  • SW 636A: Southwest station to Spring/Charlson. Peak only.
  • SW 636B: Southwest station to Junegrass/Liatris. Peak only.
  • SW 637: Midday/evening combo 633/634. Every 60 mins.
  • SW 638: Midday/evening combo 636A/B. Every 60 mins.
  • SW 639: Midday/evening combo 635A/B. Every 60 mins.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » February 8th, 2020, 12:26 pm

I wonder how many of these routes will come to pass in the 5-6 years since they where first made
Still say the 12 will be completely cut and replace it with the 612 (though I'm somewhat willing to say they should keep the 12 number for the route)
17 extended to Blake Rd. Station makes sense given the recent reconstruction of the road
Surprised no change to the 664 since it seems to have a decent overlap with the SWLRT
Doubt they will cut the 670 now that they 614 is discontinued, though I might be willing to say they'll remove some stops east of 17th
Not sure about the SW Transit routes given how they seem to want to keep there express routes and expand prime

Also Given how we may have a lot more routes ending/extended at West Lake Station, it might become more of a major transit station then Uptown

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Nick » February 8th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Very interested to see what happens with their express routes and the ridership between the two if/when they keep them. Not something I would use much anymore, but I’m still annoyed Metro Transit nerfed the off peak 94 to put people on the slower train. If urban users were forced into that, southwest metro commuters should be also.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » February 8th, 2020, 1:57 pm

Well off-peak express service between downtown and Southwest Station is already pretty much non-existent besides a few trips operated by the 698, so I'm sure most people wouldn't bat an eye over that being cut and replaced with a frequent, all-day light rail service even if it makes several stops.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Korh » February 8th, 2020, 3:08 pm

Very interested to see what happens with their express routes and the ridership between the two if/when they keep them. Not something I would use much anymore, but I’m still annoyed Metro Transit nerfed the off peak 94 to put people on the slower train. If urban users were forced into that, southwest metro commuters should be also.
I Don't think that might be an issue given how SW transit is kinda its own thing and not completely under Metro Transits thumb.
On a side note this might be wandering into fantasy maps a bit but anyone else here wonder if SW Transit had enough capital to by some cars and maybe build a few sections of third track, they would try and make a none-stop service between SW station and downtown

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » February 8th, 2020, 11:53 pm

Surprised no change to the 664 since it seems to have a decent overlap with the SWLRT
I was thinking the same, but a big part of 664’s ridership comes between Meadowbrook Rd and 100, which is quite too far from the LRT stations, and the end points of 664 down 11th Ave S in Hopkins are likewise outside the wall sheds of the stations so there is a good bit of utility there too.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 9th, 2020, 7:53 pm

[*]604: Extended to Beltline Station on the south end. Improve to 30 min daily.
I certainly hope these get a second look, especially this one. Given that the #604 will already meet the Green Line at Louisiana Station, it makes no sense to have it curl back and meet the Green Line a second time at Beltline Station.

As I wrote on the previous page, this route is probably the single-best candidate for high-quality north-south service in the western suburbs. It should get frequency of 15 minutes at minimum (but I'd like to see a pilot with 10 minute headways), and be extended down to Southdale.

Eliminating the #12 also feels like a miss. While close together, I don't think service on Excelsior and service on the Green Line ROW are duplicative. I'm only repeating myself, but it makes more sense to me to terminate the lines at West Lake and fold the savings from length back into more frequency.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » February 9th, 2020, 7:58 pm

The 12 is the service that runs between Hopkins and downtown Minneapolis via Excelsior and Hennepin during rush hours. The 612 is the off peak version that runs to Uptown, and will be shortened to West Lake.

I think extending the 705 down Louisiana to the Green Line makes more sense than keeping the 604. The other way to increase service on Louisiana is to have the 9 go south to the Green Line instead of north to 394. There's not much use in the 394/Louisiana stop besides it being a park and ride. Transfers to the 645 can be made at West End now.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 10th, 2020, 8:48 am

The 12 is the service that runs between Hopkins and downtown Minneapolis via Excelsior and Hennepin during rush hours. The 612 is the off peak version that runs to Uptown, and will be shortened to West Lake.
Oh I see. So a cut to the #12 and what looks like a boost to the #612 frequency. That's fine-ish.
I think extending the 705 down Louisiana to the Green Line makes more sense than keeping the 604. The other way to increase service on Louisiana is to have the 9 go south to the Green Line instead of north to 394. There's not much use in the 394/Louisiana stop besides it being a park and ride. Transfers to the 645 can be made at West End now.
Why not both your #705 and my #604? I do think taking advantage of the general Louisiana/Winneteka corridor as really the only non-highway north-south pathway through the western suburbs is important if bus service is ever going to be an important part of this area's transportation network.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » February 21st, 2020, 3:03 pm

I found a 2016 document showing 950 daily eastbound boardings are projected at 21st Street Station (for comparison, they projected 1,040 daily eastbound boardings at Wooddale). Is this projection up to date? For 21st Street that seems extremely high.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » February 21st, 2020, 3:10 pm

This was a huge debate in the 3A vs 3C days. The predictions seemed really high for the Kenilworth route and low for the Nicollet route.

Personally, I think the prediction of 950 riders at 21st is extremely ambitious. The only bus service in that area is the 25 and it has really low ridership.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » February 21st, 2020, 4:16 pm

It's also super cool that the 2040 plan does absolutely nothing to allow increased density near 21st St Station either. No one ever really talked about this, but it seemed kinda obvious that Lisa Goodman's support for 2040 (or lack of her opposition) was conditioned on there not being a ton of changes to the Kenwood / Lowry Hill part of Ward 7. I wouldn't hold my breath for a bunch of triplex conversions over here either.

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Re: Southwest LRT (Green Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 21st, 2020, 6:41 pm

Personally, I think the prediction of 950 riders at 21st is extremely ambitious. The only bus service in that area is the 25 and it has really low ridership.
The #2 will certainly be extended to that station though. It's not worth much, but I can also imagine people taking the train to Cedar Lake, that sounds fun.
It's also super cool that the 2040 plan does absolutely nothing to allow increased density near 21st St Station either. No one ever really talked about this, but it seemed kinda obvious that Lisa Goodman's support for 2040 (or lack of her opposition) was conditioned on there not being a ton of changes to the Kenwood / Lowry Hill part of Ward 7. I wouldn't hold my breath for a bunch of triplex conversions over here either.
Lisa G secured a late downzoning of that station area from what was proposed. That being said, it is still entirely possible to build triplexes in all of the surrounding areas. I'm not sure the developer math always works in some of the wealthiest areas, but the zoning won't be an obstacle. There are also several developable lots owned (I think) by the county, directly adjacent to the station, which I hope will be eventually sold for small multi-family construction.

I don't buy the ridership estimate and completely think the books were cooked on 3A vs 3A, but I think there's more potential for redevelopment and ridership at the 21st St Station than meets the eye.


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