Minneapolis Streetcar System

[RailBaronYarr]

I know this is all fantasy-land, gun to the head make a choice type question.. but I really wish we didn't have to create false choices for ourselves. If Minneapolis, Hennepin Cty, and MnDOT were serious about preparing for a future of demographic changes, $5/gallon gas, etc they'd stop spending on things like I-94 widening to St Cloud, the St Croix bridge, etc and funnel a portion of that money to fund each of these developments.

I'd also pose a different fantasy question.. if you could only do one of these (or other 2 mile streetcar extensions) or 4 corridors as aBRT, which would you pick (and if aBRT, which corridors)?

In the parameters described, it seems like a streetcar up Washington/Broadway is too expensive an option vs BRT for that corridor given the LRT running nearby. I think up Central is the natural pick since you describe the line already hitting Lake which means it's connected to the Midtown line and by extension most of the shopping/jobs/residences in Uptown. It would also make sense if a Hennepin-4th/University line was ever built.

And yes, it's maddening that Minneapolis, Hennepin County, and other entities don't seem to be talking to each other on the long-range planning stuff. It's why it frustrates me that Hennepin has so much say over its 'county roads' when they're clearly streets in the middle of a city. I brought up the possibility of future transit on Washington to the HC planner at the open house and was brushed off.

[twincitizen]

I realize DC is a completely different animal due to unlimited federal funny money at its disposal and no urban-rural split state government to negotiate with, but I just read about how they built streetcar tracks into streets that were due to be reconstructed anyways, even though the planning process wasn't quite there yet. Streetcars are still not running in DC, due to some extenuating circumstances, but several segments of track have been built. We certainly could have done this on Nicollet from Lake to 40th. The City had already decided on streetcars for Nicollet at that point. I wonder how much it would have added to the cost.

[ECtransplant]

There needs to be something better on Hennepin. That and Broadway are the two biggest priorities, IMO

[mattaudio]

I'd say the biggest priorities for high capacity transit would be the Kenilworth rail corridor next to Cedar Lake, with the Bassett Creek valley past Theodore Wirth Golf Course coming in as a close second. But then I learned we're building LRT to both of those places, so I guess Hennepin Ave and West Broadway are sorta worthwhile for streetcars in that case.

[Andrew_F]

Let's also assume it gets built in two phases: 1-from the river to I-94 and 2-from I-94 to Lake Street.

I would be a bit surprised if it weren't built all at once.



Regarding the actual question, I would say either south Nicollet or Central, based on which is doing better at the time. It's difficult to say how Nicollet south of Lake will change once Kmart is gone. I think that there should be a focus on completing the first line to replace bus service in the corridor ASAP.

Hopefully transit funding will be different by then and we'll be looking at completing this line and getting Broadway done at pretty much the same time.

[twincitizen]

I would say either south Nicollet or Central, based on which is doing better at the time. It's difficult to say how Nicollet south of Lake will change once Kmart is gone. I think that there should be a focus on completing the first line to replace bus service in the corridor ASAP.

That's kind of the fatal flaw of streetcars though, isn't it? They will NEVER replace even the shortest variant of the existing bus lines, due to construction costs. With regards to Nicollet-Central, that would be from 66th Street in Richfield up to Fridley Target at University &53rd. Very few Route 10s terminate at Col. Hts. Transit Center anymore, and the only Route 18 that doesn't go AT LEAST to Richfield is the infrequent 18G Grand Avenue branch, and that doesn't count. It's for this reason that I support only a (free/fareless) starter streetcar line downtown, while resuming studies on the full Nic-Central rapid bus so the rest of the route doesn't have to wait 10 years for streetcar extensions while other corridors get rapid bus.

What did you mean by "based on which is doing better at the time"? By which metric(s)?

[MSPtoMKE]

While you make a good point about the difficulty of replacing bus service with a streetcar, it isn't quite true that all 18s go as far as 66th St. in Richfield. Only roughly half of the trips go that far, there are many 18A trips that end at 46th and Nicollet. Service between 66th and 46th is generally every 15 minutes, and every 7 minutes between 46th and Downtown (counting the 18G deviation). So while it is really not realistic to think that you could replace the 18 entirely, you could certainly replace some of the service. If for instance Phase 1 makes it as far as Lake (I know there is skepticism that it will make it that far, but that is the stated goal right now), the 18 south of there could be slightly reduced in frequency. Every 15 minutes probably wouldn't cut it between Lake and 46th, but I doubt it would need to be every 7 minutes, either. The local trips could then run limited stop into downtown. If both the streetcar and most frequent branch of the 18 ran every 10 minutes, that would probably only be a modest increase of resources to run the service.

[PhilmerPhil]

This may be going off topic a bit here, but all this talk about which one or two transit lines we could maybe possibly get 10 years in the future, maybe, is why I am more supportive of quality bike infrastructure--the kind that our mom's would be comfortable riding on. I don't want to wait till I'm senile to have a robust transit network that allows for real car free living. Bike infrastructure is cheap, can be built fast, or added with ease, and doesn't depend on operating budgets.

Building a strong network of "bikeways for everyone" has huge potential to change the way people get around this city. I love that I don't have to check schedules, wait on crowded buses, and have the freedom to get almost anywhere in the city in less than a half hour.

Additionally, I see cycle tracks as more than just transportation infrastructure. Designing streets like in the image below is an excellent placemaking (can we use that word?) tool. It humanizes the street by narrowing amount of space dedicated to motor vehicles and creates an environment where people want to linger.

[Andrew_F]

That's kind of the fatal flaw of streetcars though, isn't it? They will NEVER replace even the shortest variant of the existing bus lines, due to construction costs. With regards to Nicollet-Central, that would be from 66th Street in Richfield up to Fridley Target at University &53rd. Very few Route 10s terminate at Col. Hts. Transit Center anymore, and the only Route 18 that doesn't go AT LEAST to Richfield is the infrequent 18G Grand Avenue branch, and that doesn't count. It's for this reason that I support only a (free/fareless) starter streetcar line downtown, while resuming studies on the full Nic-Central rapid bus so the rest of the route doesn't have to wait 10 years for streetcar extensions while other corridors get rapid bus.

I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with this, but I guess I've always envisioned the post-streetcar 18 ending at 46th with a forced transfer either to the streetcar or BRT. It should naturally be a transfer point, with the streetcar loop, the BRT, the 46, the 18, and whatever becomes of the express buses.

I'm not as knowledgeable about NE and Columbia Heights, so I can't say where, but I would hope the streetcar could be long enough to justify a transfer point up there.

What did you mean by "based on which is doing better at the time"? By which metric(s)?

Retail activity, ridership trends, and growth potential. While Nicollet/Central vs. Broadway certainly has an equity issue component to it, I don't think there is one when deciding between Central and Nicollet. Whichever corridor appears to (a) most need the increased service, and (b) have the most potential benefit/growth from it should get it.

I guess I'm very hopeful that a Hennepin/Univeristy-31st line will be enormously successful. Nicollet from 24th to 28th has so much momentum right now and, perhaps it's just wishful thinking, but I can't help but feel that opening up the Kmart site and bringing in the streetcar will cause the corridor to just explode with the sort of energy that Uptown has recently. I guess I envision that really turning a lot of the Twin Cities population in favor of streetcars, as Hiawatha did for LRT-- hopefully at a time where that public opinion comes along with some cash to build out a couple more routes (read: Broadway/Wash, completing Nic/Central) quickly.

[mattaudio]

I absolutely do not think it's a problem to have streetcars that do not replace legacy buses. Who decided that's a good system anyways? The historical analysis I've done of the old TCRT showed that the further out they pushed their lines in the interest of land speculation, the higher the operational costs increased by multiples per additional mile. There's some good history in one of the books I have about TCRT, I think it may be Twin Cities By Trolley. I'm convinced the same factors apply here.

Who would really want to take the 18 from Richfield to Columbia Heights? That's probably a 90+ minute trip. This is why we're building a network of LRT and freeway BRT to move people quickly over longer distances. We need to focus on streetcars as a way to connect periphery neighborhoods that are highly developed or are on the brink of developing (organically, without master plans and subsidies) and connect them to the core and to other periphery neighborhoods such as this http://goo.gl/maps/YuLY8

[Andrew_F]

I'm by not suggesting a route any longer than 46th St to 40th Ave, but you seem to suggest (maybe as two separate routes?) 60th St all the way to 610.

It just seems inefficient to me to have both streetcars and buses running essentially the same route, and thus a streetcar that isn't long enough to justify forcing transfers seems wasteful. Perhaps the forced transfers could be mitigated by having some 18s continue onto the freeway instead of terminating at 46th.

[mattaudio]

What you're seeing is a proposed light rail line connecting Bloomington and Richfield along Lyndale, and South Minneapolis under Nicollet, continuing up Central Ave to Northtown, which would interline downtown with Southwest (via a Greenway connection, and the planned SWLRT Target Field to Penn Ave would be repurposed as a westward LRT line) and Northeast (connecting to Rosedale and beyond).

Assuming streetcars are chosen, my preferred segment would be Lowry Ave to 31st St S.

[mattaudio]

Perhaps the forced transfers could be mitigated by having some 18s continue onto the freeway instead of terminating at 46th.

That's a good idea. Or it could also be interlined with the 11, which runs down 4th Ave to 46th St. I think the best option would be a mix, combining the 11 with the 18 at 46th St (which would also provide a superior connection to the Orange Line station) and then have some peak hour 11X limited stop buses that take 35W between Downtown and 46th St.

[mattaudio]

In Northeast, the 10 could also be replaced by the 17, which currently ends near Lowry. The streetcar could go to Lowry and terminate, and the 17 could cut over from Washington to Central at Lowry, providing one-seat service for those in the further reaches to downtown. This would also probably create some operational efficiencies compared to today's system.

[MNdible]

This may be going off topic a bit here, but all this talk about which one or two transit lines we could maybe possibly get 10 years in the future, maybe, is why I am more supportive of quality bike infrastructure--the kind that our mom's would be comfortable riding on.

Doesn't matter how nice the bike path is, my mom's not going to ride on it when it's snowing, raining, or below zero. Also, at a certain point, my mom's going to be too old to ride her bike. She's pretty fit and healthy -- but not everybody is that lucky.

[woofner]

We just fully reconstructed Nicollet between Lake and 40th with zero consideration of streetcars or aBRT.

If you asked DPW, they would tell you that this reconstruction was done to be "streetcar ready". All this means as far as I can tell is that the utility access was placed in such a way that it won't have to be relocated when (no need to pretend there's an 'if' alternative anymore, huh) streetcar tracks are added. I would say that in a scenario in which we have a city government that is leading the city towards solutions instead of governing in part by group hug and in part by backroom deal, building the tracks along with the rest of the roadway would have cost significantly more in the short term but probably less in the long run. However, the reconstruction of Nicollet only happened after extraordinary political pressure and after the roadway had deteriorated to significantly worse levels than any other significant segment of MSA roadway (I have the numbers if you want them). I wish we had a leadership that said from the beginning that streetcars are the answer and we're going to replace our most popular bus routes from them, in which case they would have begun the streetcar planning process early enough to have the means to construct embedded track along with the rest of the roadway on Nicollet. Instead we have a wishy-washy hem and haw leadership that makes vague commitments to transit and then delays its implementation in order to study it to death, because no one gets pissed off at a study, no one loses parking spaces to a study. So I highly doubt that DPW had the skill set to build streetcar track along with Nicollet. Of course, a lot of this has as much to do with how transportation decisions are made and planned for at the state and regional levels, although I think there is a lot more that the City of Minneapolis can do even within our confused, devolved political structure. For example, I fault them for not constructing at least the major transit stops to streetcar or enhanced bus specs, which would have saved some money and been an immediate transit improvement. If you want to know why that didn't happen, please email [email protected]. I suspect it had something to do with heads being up asses as you suggest.

Is anyone else a little bothered that Hennepin County is about to reconstruct Washington Avenue between Hennepin & 5th Ave with ZERO accommodations for enhanced transit, either bus or streetcar? Nobody wants to delay a project for something that might never happen, but we have got to get our branches of local government talking to each other.

I am bothered about this, and have been trying to formulate a communication plan with Comm Dorfman about it. The funny thing is that there is a working group on developing transit advantages at the highway level, but it all seems to fall apart once we get to surface streets. I really think part of it is a transportation engineering culture that sees a 110' right-of-way as constrained, and I'm not sure how you change that, or if you have to wait for some people to retire.

This may be going off topic a bit here, but all this talk about which one or two transit lines we could maybe possibly get 10 years in the future, maybe, is why I am more supportive of quality bike infrastructure--the kind that our mom's would be comfortable riding on.

Bikes are an important part of the solution for Minneapolis and some inner-ring and southwestern suburbs. Unfortunately the average metro commute is over 5 miles each way, so for the other million people here, bikes will never be a minor replacement for some personal trips. There are important health policy reasons for supporting cycling, but bikes can't be more than a junior partner in environmental transportation policy (if such a thing existed).

[mattaudio]

We don't need to assume that people's current average commute distances will stay the same. As the 20th Century notion of the office park becomes a liability for employers looking to retain talent, and as we build out a network of high quality transit that allows for decentralized employment nodes to compliment Downtown Mpls, that may change.

No feedback on the idea about how to use the 11 and 17 to replace the streetcar segments on Nicollet/Central?

[Tcmetro]

I'd rather see the 10 and the 18 run express from the point where the streetcar begins instead of combining them with local routes. For instance, there are many apartments and shopping areas on the 18 line in Bloomington; however, the ridership is low because the travel times are too long, and the frequencies and hours are low. Part of the reason is that people living further out are going to have less business in the core, but also partly because the transfers are poor for the crosstown commutes that dominate the area.

So if the streetcar was built from 40th and Central to 46th and Nicollet, it would be nice to see the 18's run express between 46th and Downtown (stopping at 38th, Lake, maybe 26th, and Franklin), and same with the 10's (stops maybe at Lowry, Broadway, and University)

[Andrew_F]

No feedback on the idea about how to use the 11 and 17 to replace the streetcar segments on Nicollet/Central?

I think those are good ideas. It could also be possible to incorporate some of the existing express buses in with the 18x. I'm sure the whole area around both ends of the lines would be restructured. Hopefully this can be done so that the streetcar termini become major transfer points that can keep duplicative bus service off the streetcar routes while enhancing access to downtown for those out beyond the termini and minimizing forced transfers.

[twincitizen]

Agreed. If the streetcar goes to 46th Street, the 18s coming from Richfield-Bloomington can shift over to 4th Avenue, covering the current Route 11. I'd bet it's actually a pretty good frequency match too. This way, fewer folks are "forced" to transfer if they don't want to, AND they have the option of transfering to Orange Line BRT (incl. other expresses that use 35W-46th St Station) or the Nicollet Ave Streetcar. It's actually a win-win-tiny lose. The only people truly forced to transfer (or walk further) are those traveling between two points on Nicollet Avenue on opposite sides of 46th Street. I'm having trouble picturing a scenario that avoids this forced transfer that doesn't involve duplicate bus-streetcar service on Nicollet.

Between Orange Line buses, other expresses using the freeway BRT station, and streetcar service, I can't imagine any long-line Route 18s running "express" to downtown via 35W. That would actually be a waste of scarce operating dollars and probably wouldn't save riders that much time. There are other peak-hour express routes that serve Richfield/Bloomington customers along Nicollet that get on 35W at 54th Street as well. http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... 554Map.pdf It would be a better use of operating dollars to just have the current Route 11 shift over to Nicollet south of 46th Street.