Northern Lights Express

[mulad]

I've been of the opinion that larger metros are deserving of "true" HSR with speeds of 185-220 mph, and 110-mph lines are appropriate for smaller branches like this one to Duluth.

Across the current Amtrak system, the average operating subsidy for a trip of this length (they're assuming an average of about 100mi/trip, or only about 2/3 of the distance) is about $14, and that doesn't count capital costs as far as I'm aware. If we spread the $820 million cost over 30 years and spread it out over the ~1.1 million annual riders expected for that period (starting lower and growing over time), the capital cost per passenger is around $25 -- with the feds paying 80%, the state share drops to $5/passenger. In theory the subsidy is zero, or it generates a modest surplus: With the 2h17 running time, they've projected it would start out at a mere 1% surplus and grow to about 18% a decade or so later (a 2010 study used 2012 as the base year and 2025 as the second). The annual operating cost is estimated around $26 or $27 million, so even if it does need some annual subsidy, it wouldn't be too bad (probably less than Northstar, which has roughly comparable ridership numbers even though the corridor is shorter).

[woofner]

The House has $15m in their bonding bill for "Intercity Passenger Rail Projects":

22.8 To implement capital improvements and
22.9 betterments for intercity passenger rail
22.10 projects as identified in the statewide freight
22.11 and passenger rail plan under Minnesota
22.12 Statutes, section 174.03, subdivision 1b,
22.13 which are determined to be eligible for
22.14 United States Department of Transportation
22.15 funding. Notwithstanding any law to the
22.16 contrary, a portion or phase of an intercity
22.17 passenger rail project may be accomplished
22.18 with one or more state appropriations and
22.19 an intercity passenger rail project need not
22.20 be completed with any one appropriation.
22.21 Capital improvements and betterments
22.22 include preliminary engineering, design,
22.23 engineering, environmental analysis
22.24 and mitigation, acquisition of land and
22.25 right-of-way, and construction.

Edit: Here's the link http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/comm/d ... ill%29.pdf

[MNdible]

I wonder if they'd use this to accelerate construction of the "Third Main".

[FISHMANPET]

I'm guessing "Notwithstanding any law to the contrary" still no Dan Patch for realz.

[mulad]

I listened in the Passenger Rail Forum meeting yesterday where NLX was discussed to some degree, though the audio quality was so bad that I'm hesitant to say too much about it. For instance, the preliminary engineering is supposed to be done in February of some year, but I'm not sure which of the next three years it is.

Nonetheless, they are proceeding with writing up RFPs and plan to move on to preliminary engineering of stations soon. They just finished up the Service Level environmental assessment, and will move onto the Project Level EA. There was a brief mention that planning for the maintenance facility will begin shortly. BNSF is also expected to handle preliminary engineering for work done to their existing tracks, while it sounds like Mn/DOT will be responsible for the new, high-speed 2nd track which will run 40 miles from Isanti to Hinckley (the only segment that will see 110-mph speeds -- on BNSF's existing/improved track, trains will run either 79 mph or 90 mph, depending on the specific area).

I could hear things much more clearly when the Hinckley Loop to potentially access the cas ino was discussed, though there wasn't a whole lot of info there either. That is currently being pursued as a separate project, though obviously related. In late summer 2014 they plan to release results of a study looking at the feasibility of the extra track and new ridership numbers to verify or disprove the increase in passengers that had been talked about in previous studies.

[UptownSport]

I'm wondering if this needs to be high-speed-
I'm thinking more of a tourist line- I recall a steam engine making a trip to Duluth-
Go up Friday and return Sunday?
Reverse diesel for students wishing to escape to the twin cities?

[Nick]

Do you type your posts on a regular computer or is there something else going on there?

[UptownSport]

Cell phone- Big Thumbs

Would you like me to type more?

Because of buses already being available from MSP to Duluth, I wonder if the train aught to be more geared to the tourist.
I think it's safe to say Duluth is a major tourist destination, and possibly a 'hub' for the regions tourism.
Because the last train failed, I'm doubtful another similar attempt, even if faster, would draw sufficient ridership.

There was a steam train trip advertised as a nostalgic trip to Duluth. Limiting, to begin with, trip up to Duluth Fridays and return Sunday night along with a ride on a nostalgic steam train would add to the experience of the tourist and make another reason to get them out of their cars.

I understand steam trains weren't all that slow, some would go triple digits MPH.

I also wonder if people, such as UMD students, might want to return to the cities, or catch a flight from MSP. THis could be a conventional train that ran South from Duluth to MSP Friday, and back north Sunday night.

[Chauncey87]

The last train in part "failed" because it took almost twice as long as a car 3hr 45min 3hr 35min in its later years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Star_%28train%29

If the trip time was as fast or faster then a car I feel ridership would high enough that bus operators would really need to figure out a way to stay competitive. Since even if your bus is nonstop your still in traffic.

[UptownSport]

Here's what Jeff runs:

Fare Departure Arrival Duration
$33.00 7:00am 10:20am 3h, 20m
$33.00 12:25pm 3:45pm 3h, 20m
$33.00 5:45pm 8:35pm 2h, 50m

Here's what google maps says for auto duration:

159 mi, 2 hours 26 mins

Hour to half hour time savings car over bus ...

Is a train really going to give advantage to a $33 bus trip or an auto, even if, and that's a big if, it's faster?

[mulad]

Not sure I want to run around this circle again, but whatever..

Yeah, the NLX fares will probably be higher, perhaps $47-$50 on average. The Skyline Shuttle charges $42 one-way, at least for a trip I checked earlier today, though they give a discount for round-trips ($34.50 one-way average for the dates I tried). I think there are a ton of people who wolud never set foot on a Jefferson Lines bus at almost any price. Airport shuttles are probably considered less scary, but I still figure a train would be more likely to attract folks than even a man and his van.

I may as well include a reminder that Delta is charging $235 or so per direction MSP-DLH.

Of course, the fare will be a lot higher for this weekend's steam trip: One-way equivalents of $90 for coach, $150 for first class, and $200 for premium. (Some coach seats have opened up at the last minute if anyone wants to splurge, though hotel space is tight since the Radisson is out of commission after a pipe burst a couple months ago).

The speed of the trains between Duluth and the Twin Cities seemed to vary quite a bit over the years. The Amtrak service wasn't very fast, though the predecessor Great Northern Badger service had been down to 2h45 back in 1951. The NLX is supposed to be 25-30 minutes faster than that, though.

I still really think one of the best ideas to come out of the NLX project is to run it with a decent frequency and duration of service -- Amtrak had tried reducing frequencies to just a couple of times per week, but that didn't really help. Train tracks and rolling stock are really expensive even when sitting there doing nothing, so it's best to use them to the full extent possible. Would you like to see a highway built where you could only drive on it two times a week, one direction on Friday and another on Sunday? And yet that's the way peolpe have been thinking about trains for a long time...

[UptownSport]

Assumption is, train would use existing tracks-
Did they buy right of way, build bridges and lay tracks just for this weekend's steam train run?

[UptownSport]

Of course, the fare will be a lot higher for this weekend's steam trip: One-way equivalents of $90 for coach, $150 for first class, and $200 for premium. (Some coach seats have opened up at the last minute if anyone wants to splurge, though hotel space is tight since the Radisson is out of commission after a pipe burst a couple months ago).

Wow!

Thanks!!!!!! And we have a train that sells out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mdcastle]

I take it other people do/ want to travel to Duluth differently than I do?

I always drive from my home up there. I might spend a few hours wandering around the lakefront, but most of my time is spent in the state parks in the area, then I always drive home because to me it's stupid to pay for a hotel when my own bed is 3 hours away. I

I personally can't see taking the train up, spending two whole days in walking distance of the depot or trying to figure out a strange bus system. But I'm the suburban guy on the urban forum, right?

[FISHMANPET]

I had a pretty fun time in Duluth staying two nights by the canal. It was me and 5 of my friends, we had dinner at the rotating restaurant at the Radisson, bar crawled around the canal, bar crawled downtown, explored canal park, and just generally hung out.

Other than the drive to Duluth and back, we never even got in a car all weekend.

[talindsay]

We go to Duluth for two main reasons: camping at Jay Cooke, in which case we have to drive, and going to downtown and Canal Park, in which case our car stays parked the whole time we're there. Duluth is a very walkable city and a great place to spend time, even in the winter - but driving up there can be horrible in the winter, so arriving without a car would be great. We would probably do it four or five times a year.

[tabletop]

Taxi's are very reasonable in Duluth/Superior. We take ether the hotel shuttle or a cab to the Anchor bar, and although I can't recall how much that costs, it's not a lot.

If it's easy for you to bring your bike on the NLX, the Willard Munger Trail offers great access to Jay Cooke.

[FISHMANPET]

Just spent another weekend in Duluth, this time with 8 other guys, and we all agreed that a train up to Duluth would have been great. Once again we drove there and didn't touch our cars until we left. A shuttle from the Depot to the Canal Park hotels would be perfect.

The Canal Park is great during the day for families and at night for younger guys like me, and both times I've gone it's been an absolute blast. With a train it would be even better, and I'd probably go more often. And maybe there'd be enough people taking the train that one of the surface parking lots in the area could be turned into another hotel.

[LRV Op Dude]

Just spent another weekend in Duluth, this time with 8 other guys, and we all agreed that a train up to Duluth would have been great. Once again we drove there and didn't touch our cars until we left. A shuttle from the Depot to the Canal Park hotels would be perfect.

You could away take the Rocket Rider Service offered by Jefferson Lines.

[FISHMANPET]

I can't even figure out how to book that service.

Also there's no bar car on a bus.