Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
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Re: RE: Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » August 4th, 2020, 2:07 pm


Look at 5th St downtown as an analogue to what Broadway LRT might look like.
But it doesn't have to look like that at all, right? There are lots of adjacent mostly empty parking lots to extend ROW and at pinch points we can do things like share lanes with general traffic.

I'm just thinking of the to of my head here. Certainly others will have better ideas.

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Anondson
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » August 4th, 2020, 2:15 pm

If there’s thoughts of a shift an underground through part of North, maybe go full Met Council rail planner and extend the tunnel through downtown such that all the lines can be migrated to the underground when done. Say all the way to about 4th and 11th.

Just a gonzo idea for us.

blo442
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Re: RE: Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby blo442 » August 4th, 2020, 3:19 pm

Look at 5th St downtown as an analogue to what Broadway LRT might look like.
But it doesn't have to look like that at all, right? There are lots of adjacent mostly empty parking lots to extend ROW and at pinch points we can do things like share lanes with general traffic.
Sure, this could be a possible outcome to preserve auto access. (although it has its own issues, like land acquisition is a project manager's nightmare & rail operators aren't going to be happy merging into general traffic) Either way, the process is going to be messy and turn a lot of project stakeholders into opponents. I know I'm awfully cynical compared to most others on this board, but I guess that's what happens after a few years working in engineering. :)

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 4th, 2020, 5:55 pm

Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » August 4th, 2020, 5:58 pm

Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
I like this, get this in front of planners!


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alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 5th, 2020, 9:07 am

I know some armchair traffic engineers might take issue with this assertion, but based on conversations I've had with a rail staff person at MT, there is no E-W "over" street in North Minneapolis wide enough to accommodate at grade two-way LRT and auto traffic safely.
Not a traffic engineer, but I work with them. Traffic engineers love to pretend that their work is an exact science, but it's truthfully extremely political. The standards are the standards until they are not. The engineers at MnDOT and Metro Transit may prefer what they prefer, but it is not a fact of geometry that light rail trains could not run on Broadway (let's put aside the idea that Minneapolis' modal priority is supposed to put transit ahead of cars, so technically we should be debating whether there's space for cars on Broadway after peds, bikes, and transit has been accommodated), it's a fact of political geometry. Trains in downtown Houston (!!) for instance, operate in an 80' ROW.

I additionally don't mean to dismiss the safety concerns, but there are plenty of ways to design for safety, a median island is not the only option.
Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
The biggest issue with this is that there needs to be a station between Emerson and Fremont Avenues, to provide a direct transfer to the D Line. The station near Penn is also probably a bit of an awkward distance away.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 5th, 2020, 10:09 am

I know some armchair traffic engineers might take issue with this assertion, but based on conversations I've had with a rail staff person at MT, there is no E-W "over" street in North Minneapolis wide enough to accommodate at grade two-way LRT and auto traffic safely.
Not a traffic engineer, but I work with them. Traffic engineers love to pretend that their work is an exact science, but it's truthfully extremely political. The standards are the standards until they are not. The engineers at MnDOT and Metro Transit may prefer what they prefer, but it is not a fact of geometry that light rail trains could not run on Broadway (let's put aside the idea that Minneapolis' modal priority is supposed to put transit ahead of cars, so technically we should be debating whether there's space for cars on Broadway after peds, bikes, and transit has been accommodated), it's a fact of political geometry. Trains in downtown Houston (!!) for instance, operate in an 80' ROW.

I additionally don't mean to dismiss the safety concerns, but there are plenty of ways to design for safety, a median island is not the only option.
Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
The biggest issue with this is that there needs to be a station between Emerson and Fremont Avenues, to provide a direct transfer to the D Line. The station near Penn is also probably a bit of an awkward distance away.
The D Line will have a stop at 7th & Bryant which is right next to the proposed Near North Station. While the station under Penn may look awkward, this map doesn't show exactly where station entrances would be. It just indicates there would be a station in that vicinity.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » August 5th, 2020, 11:09 am

Trains in downtown Houston (!!) for instance, operate in an 80' ROW.
This is a straw man. Losing one street in a downtown grid is entirely different than losing Broadway Avenue, which is the primary commercial street for North Minneapolis and has no comparable parallel street to pick up the slack. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take some lanes of auto traffic to facilitate a better routing for this line, but an option that would cause Broadway to cease being a functioning through street is... not good.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 5th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Trains in downtown Houston (!!) for instance, operate in an 80' ROW.
This is a straw man. Losing one street in a downtown grid is entirely different than losing Broadway Avenue, which is the primary commercial street for North Minneapolis and has no comparable parallel street to pick up the slack. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take some lanes of auto traffic to facilitate a better routing for this line, but an option that would cause Broadway to cease being a functioning through street is... not good.
I think you misread what I wrote.

The point was that suitable sidewalks, car lanes, and LRT lanes and stations can co-exist in a 80' right-of-way, which they do in downtown Houston and many other places around the world. I specifically said that I was not literally applying the city's modal framework, I think car lanes on Broadway are inevitable in the final condition, I am not calling for Broadway to be closed to cars.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MattW » August 5th, 2020, 3:48 pm

Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
I like this too, but I don't see the Met Council garnering the political will for a TBM. I think we'd have to go with a top-down cut and cover on existing roadways.

As mapped, the turn from Emerson to Broadway would present some eminent domain challenges.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 5th, 2020, 4:03 pm

If we're willing to TBM under the airport then we can TBM under North Minneapolis so there's as very little disruption on the surface as possible.

EOst
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » August 6th, 2020, 4:56 pm

The point was that suitable sidewalks, car lanes, and LRT lanes and stations can co-exist in a 80' right-of-way, which they do in downtown Houston and many other places around the world. I specifically said that I was not literally applying the city's modal framework, I think car lanes on Broadway are inevitable in the final condition, I am not calling for Broadway to be closed to cars.
Where in downtown Houston? The Red Line on Main Street has a 90' ROW, and the other lines run on a one-way pair.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 6th, 2020, 6:22 pm

The point was that suitable sidewalks, car lanes, and LRT lanes and stations can co-exist in a 80' right-of-way, which they do in downtown Houston and many other places around the world. I specifically said that I was not literally applying the city's modal framework, I think car lanes on Broadway are inevitable in the final condition, I am not calling for Broadway to be closed to cars.
Where in downtown Houston? The Red Line on Main Street has a 90' ROW, and the other lines run on a one-way pair.
Main Street, at least southwest of Ensemble/HCC Station, seems to be 80' ROW and a very pleasant pedestrian environment, even with a large landscaped median of station-width between the tracks for the entire stretch and in some places some really excessive sidewalk planting.

I apologize for the confusion, I guess that neighborhood is called Midtown, and not Downtown.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » August 7th, 2020, 1:11 pm

Here's a map of the alignment I think they should do. North of Robbinsdale it's very similar to the original but would take lanes away from Bottineau Boulevard instead of being on BNSF right-of-way.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
I like this alignment a lot too. If money and cost-effectiveness ratings were no object, it's what I'd go with. Running down the middle or side of Bottineau Blvd (rather than the freight rail ROW) may in fact result in higher ridership, especially at North Memorial Hospital. Not having a station anywhere near there was a huge drawback of the freight ROW. I never understood why no station was planned at ~34th-36th Ave to serve the hospital and close the spacing gap between downtown Robbinsdale and Golden Valley Rd.

For the city portion of the route, I have a non-tunnel alternative that may also be workable: 7th>Lyndale>Lowry>Bottineau. While it wouldn't serve as much of the heart of West Broadway, it would come pretty close at Lyndale & Broadway. And there's always the plan to put aBRT on Broadway>Washington, so there would be a transfer at Lyndale & Broadway. Running on Lyndale also puts stations at Broadway and Lowry within walking distance of the riverfront area and all of those jobs on the east side of I-94. Not a great walking environment, but the distance is very doable. The biggest downside of Lyndale>Lowry routing would be that it would be much slower than the tunnel under Broadway. Using the government's calculations, you'd probably lose some suburban ridership due to the slower end-to-end trip, but you'd get more city ridership because there would be more stations in city neighborhoods.

For the suburban portion of the route, one thing that seems inevitable no matter what route is chosen is the use of Bottineau Ave ROW instead of the rail corridor. What does everyone think about side-running vs. center running? South of Hwy. 100, I'd probably want it to be in the center of the street, like the Green Line. North of 100 doesn't matter as much because it's not walkable period. By the point you reach Bass Lake Road (the first station north of 100), the RR tracks are tight on the west side of Bottineau Blvd. It probably makes sense to put the LRT tracks on the west side of the road as well, so you don't have a roadway between two sets of tracks.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » August 7th, 2020, 1:25 pm

I'm not sure about all of the technical reasons why, but it seems like the lesson from the Hiawatha routing of the green line is that side-running (vs. center running) makes the signalling and traffic management much more complicated.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 7th, 2020, 1:59 pm

I don't know if the crash stats would support this argument, but hasn't center-running made train-car and train-pedestrian crashes more likely?

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » August 7th, 2020, 2:37 pm

People should attend this and make their opinions heard!

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Mdcastle » August 7th, 2020, 5:28 pm

I'm not sure the issues with Hiawatha were as much side vs center running as having preemption on a very heavily traveled corridor, then having too redo it when the speed of the train changed. One of the councilmembers of the area came on streets and said he was going to get a consultant to install flashing yellow arrows to further ease traffic; that was several years ago and the protected only turns are still there.

As for tunneling, are we suggesting there's as much political will to tunnel under single family detached houses as under an airport? I know we tunneled to avoid townhouses but that doesn't mean we're obligated to blow money like that again.

There's probably enough space on Bottineau Blvd for two traffic lanes each direction as well as light rail, assuming we remove the frontage roads, but it's too bad we didn't do this before we completely reconstructed the entire roadway with no provision for light rail.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 7th, 2020, 8:23 pm

As for tunneling, are we suggesting there's as much political will to tunnel under single family detached houses as under an airport? I know we tunneled to avoid townhouses but that doesn't mean we're obligated to blow money like that again.
I'm suggesting there should be the political will to tunnel under a dense and transit-dependent area if taking away space from cars in this area is a no-go. Also there's more to the story than just tunneling for Southwest to avoid townhouses. The townhouses took away space that was originally railroad right-of-way, the freight reroute was a no-go, and rerouting the trail was a no-go even though that would've been pretty easy and cheap compared to tunneling or rerouting freight trains, so the purpose of tunneling was mainly so the Kenilworth Trail didn't have to be permanently rerouted. We could've colocated Southwest and the freight rail while rerouting the trail and saved millions, but somehow there was enough political will to build a light rail tunnel instead. If there's no political will to tunnel under North Minneapolis to avoid most of the community impact of road closures and construction while keeping a competitive travel time for riders going longer distances then that is quite the double standard.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » August 9th, 2020, 12:25 pm

Main Street, at least southwest of Ensemble/HCC Station, seems to be 80' ROW and a very pleasant pedestrian environment, even with a large landscaped median of station-width between the tracks for the entire stretch and in some places some really excessive sidewalk planting.

I apologize for the confusion, I guess that neighborhood is called Midtown, and not Downtown.
Ah, there I see it. That design to me looks pretty questionable for a major arterial road, and those sidewalks are still below standards for a commercial corridor, but that is a demonstration that it is technically possible.

A more local (and probably more directly relevant) example is Washington Ave through part of Stadium Village, which is also 80'. I don't think the cross-section there works very well for anyone, but YMMV.
For the suburban portion of the route, one thing that seems inevitable no matter what route is chosen is the use of Bottineau Ave ROW instead of the rail corridor. What does everyone think about side-running vs. center running? South of Hwy. 100, I'd probably want it to be in the center of the street, like the Green Line. North of 100 doesn't matter as much because it's not walkable period. By the point you reach Bass Lake Road (the first station north of 100), the RR tracks are tight on the west side of Bottineau Blvd. It probably makes sense to put the LRT tracks on the west side of the road as well, so you don't have a roadway between two sets of tracks.
The roadway (with a bit of sidewalk buffer) on the west side goes right up to the edge of the railroad ROW, so I don't think you could construct it there without reconstructing the entirety of Bottineau to shift it east.
There's probably enough space on Bottineau Blvd for two traffic lanes each direction as well as light rail, assuming we remove the frontage roads, but it's too bad we didn't do this before we completely reconstructed the entire roadway with no provision for light rail.
I may be too cynical, but this factor makes me skeptical that HCPW would ever accept Bottineau as the routing.


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