Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[froggie]

Blue Line doesn't think so. https://goo.gl/maps/8ppQ3xDK4eR2

Apples and oranges. West Broadway is a major street. Minnehaha is so insignficant now that they don't even bother with traffic counts anymore.

Putting Penn Ave aside, what were the complaints from the businesses? When you say "further down" are saying towards the burbs or towards the city?

Towards the city...basically between Humboldt and Lyndale. The usual complaints..."construction disruption", "loss of street parking", etc etc. They were loud enough to where it was a contributing factor in getting that stretch dropped from further consideration.

This discussion just makes me wish that grade separation were a politically viable option. Even a short section through this area of tight ROW would be expensive enough that our planning structure would eliminate the option.

Agreed. Would also neatly solve the Southwest routing issue. But unfortunately, given construction/labor costs in this country, let alone construction and post-construction impacts, it's not to be.

[trigonalmayhem]

We're OK with paying the construction costs of grade separation for highways though. And those have a way bigger impact spatially compared to the volume of people that can be moved.

[EOst]

They also move way more people every day.

[mulad]

It's pretty amazing how much space freeway ramps can take up. Even this unremarkable interchange at Como and Snelling appears to have taken out about 30 buildings, if you compare it to old maps.

[froggie]

We're OK with paying the construction costs of grade separation for highways though. And those have a way bigger impact spatially compared to the volume of people that can be moved.

Highway grade separation is also typically not a 9-digit fiscal impact. Transit tunnels are, especially given where those tunnels are typically located (in urban areas). Even the Blue Line tunnel under the airport ran 9-digits.

Just as we've seen with computer desktops vs. laptops vs. more recent tablets of similar capabilities, you pay for spatial compactness. But unless humans suddenly get much thinner/narrower, there's only so much you narrowing you can do of transportation infrastructure and the vehicles (both transit and private) that use them.

[woofner]

One minor quibble: due to curb/gutter, your car lanes would need to be 11ft, not 10. Otherwise yes that would theoretically work, though the lack of separation between vehicles and peds would likely doom such a cross-section.

No they wouldn't. Vehicles can drive over gutters. What a responsible traffic engineer would do here is put in a raised crossing, anyway. When a motorist approaches a constriction in the roadway that culminates in a crosswalk, he or she slows down.

And as I recall, the community WAS given that option. The complaints from Penn Ave residents and businesses further down Broadway (where ROW was wider) were loud and clear.

According to the AA, exactly 321 people attended the two open houses prior to the elimination of the West Broadway LRT alternative. And I'd love to see what exactly was presented to them that they used to "decide" that this wouldn't work for their community.

And you wonder why the Broadway business owners wouldn't be supportive of this plan.

For those of you who've never been to North Minneapolis, there are almost no businesses on this stretch of West Broadway. The city owns nearly all of it.

Apparently I need to clarify that my cross-section would only be for the one or two pedestrian crossings in the section between Penn and James. East and west from there, there is room for at least 10' of pedestrian space on either side of the street.

[froggie]

No they wouldn't. Vehicles can drive over gutters.

Though I know you detest/oppose them (and Matt harps about them being coded in state law), 11ft lanes would also be needed to meet minimum state-aid standards. Short of convincing a GOP legislature to change them, you'll need to keep the lanes 11ft to have a snowball-in-hell chance of getting this approved.

And given the curves, keeping a curbed 10ft lane would cause trouble for buses and trucks (there are both school buses along this route and it's a city truck route).

According to the AA, exactly 321 people attended the two open houses prior to the elimination of the West Broadway LRT alternative. And I'd love to see what exactly was presented to them that they used to "decide" that this wouldn't work for their community.

Large numbers, actually, given the lack of interest most residents tend to have in attending transportation project meetings. But the bottom line is: the community did have an opportunity to comment, both in meeting and online...I participated in the latter.

For those of you who've never been to North Minneapolis, there are almost no businesses on this stretch of West Broadway. The city owns nearly all of it.

For those of you who've never been to North Minneapolis, most of the businesses are either at the Penn intersection or east of Humboldt. And for the LRT to be routed east of Penn, it also would have had to continue on West Broadway east of Humboldt, in front of those same businesses...

As for the parcels, I looked that up. There are 67 parcels total on both sides of West Broadway between Penn and James. The city owns 25 of them, with almost all of that concentrated in two areas: south side of Broadway between Penn and Logan, and the north side of Broadway from just north of Newton to Knox. Apparently, that wide open space on the northeast side and south of Logan is owned by an LLC and not the city.

[FISHMANPET]

I'm not sure what area would be classified as the "community" but surely 321 has to be less than 1% of that. Let's not pretend that less than 1% of the people speak for the community. And let's not pull out some bullshit about how if they wanted to be heard they should have shown up etc etc. Not everyone has the time to sit through these open houses, especially those that may work multiple jobs or odd shifts (aka poor people). I'm not sure exactly how community outreach should be done for something like that, but requiring people to show up to endless meetings to have a voice is insane.

So, good for you for participating, but let's not even begin to pretend that this is what "the community" wants when only 321 people, most likely technocrats or busybodies with nothing better to do, even showed up. That's not community input.

[woofner]

11ft lanes would also be needed to meet minimum state-aid standards

This being an LRT project with a very long timeline and participation by the FTA, I'm guessing there would be an ability to build a variance to state-aid standards into the project. What do the the state-aid standards say about street-running railroads?

a curbed 10ft lane would cause trouble for buses and trucks (there are both school buses along this route and it's a city truck route).

What do they do in the thousands of places around the country where they have to navigate 10' lanes?

that wide open space on the northeast side and south of Logan is owned by an LLC and not the city

I'm guessing Common Bond would be open to working with any layer of government. Look them up and see how much money they get from the city, county, state, and federal government.

[froggie]

I'm not sure what area would be classified as the "community" but surely 321 has to be less than 1% of that. Let's not pretend that less than 1% of the people speak for the community. And let's not pull out some bullshit about how if they wanted to be heard they should have shown up etc etc. Not everyone has the time to sit through these open houses, especially those that may work multiple jobs or odd shifts (aka poor people). I'm not sure exactly how community outreach should be done for something like that, but requiring people to show up to endless meetings to have a voice is insane.

Short of going door-to-door or ensuring that meetings are in the evenings (they usually are) and not during the daytime, there's not much more they can do. There are community meetings, online inputs, mass mailings...plenty of things. But in my fairly extensive experience with transportation projects, the sad fact is that most people just don't care. Most of the time, the people who DO care are the property owners and elderly residents who don't have anything else to do.

This being an LRT project with a very long timeline and participation by the FTA, I'm guessing there would be an ability to build a variance to state-aid standards into the project. What do the the state-aid standards say about street-running railroads?

State-aid standards make no distinction between street-running railroads and streets without railroads.

What do they do in the thousands of places around the country where they have to navigate 10' lanes?

In all but a handful of those thousands of places, you don't have curb on BOTH sides of that 10ft lane.

I'm guessing Common Bond would be open to working with any layer of government. Look them up and see how much money they get from the city, county, state, and federal government.

Looked them up...looks like the building is already mostly complete (my aerial imagery is from 2013, before construction began). Unless an easement or set-aside was addressed in the site plan, probably too late at this point.

[trigonalmayhem]

They also move way more people every day.

Not if you adjust for how much space they take up per person moved. So they're a worse use of limited space if your goal is to move people.

[trigonalmayhem]

We're OK with paying the construction costs of grade separation for highways though. And those have a way bigger impact spatially compared to the volume of people that can be moved.

Highway grade separation is also typically not a 9-digit fiscal impact. Transit tunnels are, especially given where those tunnels are typically located (in urban areas). Even the Blue Line tunnel under the airport ran 9-digits.

Just as we've seen with computer desktops vs. laptops vs. more recent tablets of similar capabilities, you pay for spatial compactness. But unless humans suddenly get much thinner/narrower, there's only so much you narrowing you can do of transportation infrastructure and the vehicles (both transit and private) that use them.

The best option isn't always the cheapest one, unless you're a transit planning bureaucrat. Then the cheapest option is the only option.

[HiawathaGuy]

The best option isn't always the cheapest one, unless you're a transit planning bureaucrat. Then the cheapest option is the only option.

Glad to see you're finally back with your sour grapes and snarky replies. I've missed them. *sighs*

[alleycat]

That building is complete and Sherman has been granted development rights to the next vacant stretch to the east on both sides of Illion. There was a time when land taking was probably an option. That's not as easy now. Back in the real world we've got a serviceable alignment that will be very useful, the C Line, the D line and whatever the powers that be force down our throats on West Broadway.

West Broadway streetcar is where actual decisions are being made right now. Even with a little streetcar they're warning of potential impacts to right of way and short term hardship for business along the corridor. How about directing your BLRT dislike to the Broadway streetcar study.

[MNdible]

So pragmatic.

[alleycat]

How about realistic?

[mulad]

I wish we'd consider elevated rail a bit more. There are places in Chicago where it fits above alleyways, like this part of the Pink Line.

[EOst]

Man, I would hate to live in a building with an elevated rail line running right down my alley.

[MNdible]

How about realistic?

Yes, that too. It was intended as a compliment.

[HiawathaGuy]

Man, I would hate to live in a building with an elevated rail line running right down my alley.

Agreed. There are certainly advantages to doing this - from a routing and land-use perspective. But we are no where near the density to justify that. Plus the noise of rail at a 2nd floor window's level would be a huge detraction and cause a lot of fighting that otherwise doesn't happen here today.