Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
thespeedmccool
Block E
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby thespeedmccool » July 8th, 2021, 9:13 pm

As others mentioned, the threshold for departing from grade seems to be less in the suburbs than in the city, which is backwards.
I can only think this has to do with cities' policies toward these things. Minneapolis has (supposedly) deprioritized driving lanes, so taking from car space is more palatable (not to mention that urban residents are far more likely to walk and take transit than suburbanites.)

Robbinsdale seems to know how its voters get downtown, and it's not by transit. If suburban drivers feel even a minor rise in driving times (whether real or not) after a train took right-of-way (whether it took driving space or not,) there will be hell to pay.

The Met Council, before anything else, is a coordinator, not a transit agency. They're geared toward finding the political path of least resistance, not developing transit.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby talindsay » July 9th, 2021, 9:17 am

I think they'll find more political opposition to elevated than to tunnel, and with good reason. Although tourists love the feel that the El gives Chicago and that the elevated lines in Paris give, they really do divide communities and darken the streets that people live and walk on. Those are much denser cities than we're talking about here, so I fear we'd end up with something like the pit that's Lake Street under Hiawatha.

The "right" answer is a deep-bore tunnel under Broadway, because it can be built and operated with minimal disruption, without negatively impacting the neighborhoods it passes through either during construction or in operation. Stations can be built in conjunction with redevelopment of buildings at station sites, so the extra 60 feet of vertical dig is less onerous. But of course deep-bore tunnels are expensive, and deep-bore stations are both expensive and difficult.

We end up only discussing cut-and-cover tunneling because it's an order of magnitude cheaper than deep-bore tunnels. But cut-and-cover tunnels are massively disruptive during construction, essentially requiring the entire length of the project to be destroyed and rebuilt, which rightly irritates the community. A couple miles of deep-bore tunnel would get rid of a lot of the difficult political trade-offs that have to be weighed when choosing among surface, elevated, or shallow-tunneled rail.

DanPatchToget
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 9th, 2021, 9:38 am

I think they'll find more political opposition to elevated than to tunnel, and with good reason. Although tourists love the feel that the El gives Chicago and that the elevated lines in Paris give, they really do divide communities and darken the streets that people live and walk on. Those are much denser cities than we're talking about here, so I fear we'd end up with something like the pit that's Lake Street under Hiawatha.

The "right" answer is a deep-bore tunnel under Broadway, because it can be built and operated with minimal disruption, without negatively impacting the neighborhoods it passes through either during construction or in operation. Stations can be built in conjunction with redevelopment of buildings at station sites, so the extra 60 feet of vertical dig is less onerous. But of course deep-bore tunnels are expensive, and deep-bore stations are both expensive and difficult.

We end up only discussing cut-and-cover tunneling because it's an order of magnitude cheaper than deep-bore tunnels. But cut-and-cover tunnels are massively disruptive during construction, essentially requiring the entire length of the project to be destroyed and rebuilt, which rightly irritates the community. A couple miles of deep-bore tunnel would get rid of a lot of the difficult political trade-offs that have to be weighed when choosing among surface, elevated, or shallow-tunneled rail.
I think it would be more accurate to look at the positive and negative community impacts from Miami's MetroRail. Most if not all of it is elevated, so it would be interesting to see how much impact there's been on the communities it goes through.

Trademark
Landmark Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 9th, 2021, 11:49 am

I think they'll find more political opposition to elevated than to tunnel, and with good reason. Although tourists love the feel that the El gives Chicago and that the elevated lines in Paris give, they really do divide communities and darken the streets that people live and walk on. Those are much denser cities than we're talking about here, so I fear we'd end up with something like the pit that's Lake Street under Hiawatha.

The "right" answer is a deep-bore tunnel under Broadway, because it can be built and operated with minimal disruption, without negatively impacting the neighborhoods it passes through either during construction or in operation. Stations can be built in conjunction with redevelopment of buildings at station sites, so the extra 60 feet of vertical dig is less onerous. But of course deep-bore tunnels are expensive, and deep-bore stations are both expensive and difficult.

We end up only discussing cut-and-cover tunneling because it's an order of magnitude cheaper than deep-bore tunnels. But cut-and-cover tunnels are massively disruptive during construction, essentially requiring the entire length of the project to be destroyed and rebuilt, which rightly irritates the community. A couple miles of deep-bore tunnel would get rid of a lot of the difficult political trade-offs that have to be weighed when choosing among surface, elevated, or shallow-tunneled rail.
Comparing an elevated rail over north to lake street and hiawatha is apples and oranges. How many feet wide is the train bridge and how many feet wide is the hiawatha highway bridge. Elevated rail doesn't have to be intrusive. Look at the skytrain in vancouver or some of the bridges on the green line currently under construction. Comparing modern elevated rail to what is seen in chicago is night and day. The elevated portion can be built in the median of the street and doesn't have to divide anything more than the cars that drive on broadway currently do. If anything it would divide it less then at grade rail does.

We've seen university since the green line was built. You can only cross the street at specific places. With elevated you can pretty much cross everywhere and the supports will only come down every hundred or few hundred feet.

Yes we would all love a deep bore tunnel. But this would absolutely never happen here. For a variety of reasons.

DanPatchToget
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 9th, 2021, 12:22 pm

I think they'll find more political opposition to elevated than to tunnel, and with good reason. Although tourists love the feel that the El gives Chicago and that the elevated lines in Paris give, they really do divide communities and darken the streets that people live and walk on. Those are much denser cities than we're talking about here, so I fear we'd end up with something like the pit that's Lake Street under Hiawatha.

The "right" answer is a deep-bore tunnel under Broadway, because it can be built and operated with minimal disruption, without negatively impacting the neighborhoods it passes through either during construction or in operation. Stations can be built in conjunction with redevelopment of buildings at station sites, so the extra 60 feet of vertical dig is less onerous. But of course deep-bore tunnels are expensive, and deep-bore stations are both expensive and difficult.

We end up only discussing cut-and-cover tunneling because it's an order of magnitude cheaper than deep-bore tunnels. But cut-and-cover tunnels are massively disruptive during construction, essentially requiring the entire length of the project to be destroyed and rebuilt, which rightly irritates the community. A couple miles of deep-bore tunnel would get rid of a lot of the difficult political trade-offs that have to be weighed when choosing among surface, elevated, or shallow-tunneled rail.
Comparing an elevated rail over north to lake street and hiawatha is apples and oranges. How many feet wide is the train bridge and how many feet wide is the hiawatha highway bridge. Elevated rail doesn't have to be intrusive. Look at the skytrain in vancouver or some of the bridges on the green line currently under construction. Comparing modern elevated rail to what is seen in chicago is night and day. The elevated portion can be built in the median of the street and doesn't have to divide anything more than the cars that drive on broadway currently do. If anything it would divide it less then at grade rail does.

We've seen university since the green line was built. You can only cross the street at specific places. With elevated you can pretty much cross everywhere and the supports will only come down every hundred or few hundred feet.

Yes we would all love a deep bore tunnel. But this would absolutely never happen here. For a variety of reasons.
We’ve already built a deep bore tunnel plus a station for our light rail. Just saying.

Besides that I agree with what you said about a bridge/viaduct not having to be intrusive and dividing neighborhoods.

SurlyLHT
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 9th, 2021, 2:20 pm

North News published by PYC had a couple NIMBY articles about this recently.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... Lv2%5D.pdf

kellonathan
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby kellonathan » July 9th, 2021, 10:13 pm

Before we dismiss and set aside cut-and-cover tunneling, I often wonder why we don't consider "cover-and-cut" (top-down) tunneling method as an option, where surface disruption can be reduced, as long as excavation portals can be accessed.
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BigIdeasGuy
Union Depot
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby BigIdeasGuy » July 12th, 2021, 12:14 pm

The current deep bore tunnel was a result of extremely unique circumstances where basically every other option wasn't viable for any number of reason.

Sure it's evidence that we could do it. But to use it as a precedent as why one should be built on this project omits an incredible amount of additional facts and variables that went into the decision to building the first one.

Bakken2016
Target Field
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » July 13th, 2021, 7:38 am

https://twitter.com/AlexT_Burns/status/ ... 39971?s=20

Alex Burns just posted some images that give potential station areas and a visual of LRT running on West Broadway.

gopherfan
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby gopherfan » July 13th, 2021, 7:43 am


acs
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby acs » July 13th, 2021, 7:47 am

Only one travel lane and no parking isn't going to go down well to say the least. How they'll fit stations in too is beyond me.

gopherfan
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby gopherfan » July 13th, 2021, 7:52 am

Center Running Option on Broadway Image
Side Running Option on Broadway Image
Elevated Running Option on Broadway Image
Tunnel Running Option on Broadway: Not considered :(

Bakken2016
Target Field
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » July 13th, 2021, 7:58 am

It baffles me that people think this project would be divisive to Broadway, this will bring more people and make it so much safer to be a pedestrian. Broadway is unsafe because it prioritizes driving.

uptownbro
Landmark Center
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby uptownbro » July 13th, 2021, 8:03 am

The elevated track it just to appealing to me. The Greenline while a great asset along university at times is to mixed in with traffic. The running side concept is also interesting but I worry if not done well would repeat the same mistakes as the current blue line.
Either way all of these along boardway would be a preferred option and a great investment in the city.
I have to agree. Boardway is not a present street to walk/bike along today as is.

mattaudio
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby mattaudio » July 13th, 2021, 8:10 am

So sad that tunneling wasn't considered between the end of the 7th St stroad near the Plymouth Avenue curve and the start of the Bottineau stroad near where the viaducts are being replaced across Lowry and Wirth Pkwy. A tunnel under that section could have some major cut and cover sections...
- through North Commons (0.5 mi)
- the bulldozed redevelopment strip along Broadway Crescent (0.3 mi)
- the North High west parking lot (0.25 mi)
This would be a similar length of tunneling to what was done under MSP airport for the Blue Line in ~2002.

gopherfan
Metrodome
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby gopherfan » July 13th, 2021, 8:14 am

Nick Landwer pretty much threw out the elevated option, because it doesn't add any space for cars or bikes. Faster service speed wasn't even mentioned with that option.

EOst
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby EOst » July 13th, 2021, 8:17 am

That side-running concept should be ruled out by the side road closures alone. That would absolutely divide the neighborhood in half.

Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Silophant » July 13th, 2021, 8:19 am

Looks like there would be room for some parking with the elevated option, where they don't need left turn lanes at least. I'm glad they at least produced a visualization of it. It may still get shot down without due consideration, but at least it won't be because everyone assumed it would definitely be built out of brand new creaky steel Chicago El viaducts.

(Though, for what it's worth, I was in Philadelphia a few weeks ago and found myself walking under the very similar elevated portion of the Market-Frankford Line and my reaction was "ooh, the shade is nice", not "ugh, this divides the neighborhood". Indeed, we had to cross midblock several times to get around sidewalk closures, and I've gotta say, it was much easier to run across a normal street, under a viaduct, than it is to jump a chain fence to cross University midblock in St. Paul.
That side-running concept should be ruled out by the side road closures alone. That would absolutely divide the neighborhood in half.
Agreed, for West Broadway, but I'm confused why it isn't being considered for the section of Bottineau north of Robbinsdale, where the rare cross streets are all signalized anyway.

acs
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby acs » July 13th, 2021, 8:31 am

What's wrong with parking cars on the concrete directly under the elevated rail deck, between the support poles? you could probably fit quite a few if you did angled parking to make up for the loss of curbside parking. Or am I missing something obvious here.

Bakken2016
Target Field
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » July 13th, 2021, 8:33 am

If we are trying to reduce VMTs, the parking needs to go. People will see the LRT as an easy option to get to the places along West Broadway, and if you really have to drive, park on another nearby street.


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