Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 13th, 2021, 2:38 pm

At-grade versus tunnel/elevated along the most constrained part of Broadway is probably a time difference of a couple minutes at most. At-grade allows the street to be better served for peds and transit users while a grade separation really only serves to keep the status quo.

As for Fremont and Emerson, I think that changing both streets to two-way operations and making Fremont more of a bus street and Emerson more of a car street could solve the transfer problem.

I feel like there's some opportunity to take parking lots from the strip malls or some of the vacant land to expand the ROW where possible to accommodate parking and/or turn lanes.

Lastly, I think routing along 21st east of Knox should be reviewed as it may address some of the concerns about Broadway. It can easily be closed to trains only, but it pushes transit about 400' off the main street.
Even if the time savings with the elevated option is just a couple minutes, it still significantly improves reliability. When I worked at Metro Transit I noticed the on-time performance for the Green Line was similar or slightly worse than regular buses and aBRT. Also how much time is lost when a Green Line train hits a car or pedestrian, or when a car gets stuck on the tracks? It all adds up, and to me the elevated option is worth it to make it reliable and prevent conflicts with traffic and pedestrians.

I don't see how the elevated option keeps the status quo when it appears the at-grade and elevated options both have a single travel lane in each direction. The only difference with the elevated option is the ability to include left-turn lanes, and perhaps include parking spaces where there aren't columns so businesses along Broadway will, in theory, be more supportive of this.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 13th, 2021, 3:06 pm

I highly recommend you all actually listen to or watch the video about W. Broadway. The Met Council is basically like, "Center running is the only way," and then community members pipe in and say basically, "We don't see how you're going to fit this in here at all without tearing down buildings you don't have political capital to remove."

They're wasting their time and our money on this boondoggle. It's just wishful thinking that 2+2 will equal 5.
They better start getting used to the below as the new blue line then, because this is the only way it's going down broadway.

Image
I agree, and they should just cut ACS and I a check for a small percent of the money they will save by scrapping this now and we will both retire :-D

talindsay
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby talindsay » July 14th, 2021, 9:56 am

I suppose I write it that way because the elevated idea (clearly nerfed) was presented only as a consideration of attempting to preserve the current street design. My logic follows that a tunnel would not have the support columns in the roadway and that the project team would present the redeeming quality of the tunnel being the preservation of the current street design.
Having been actively involved in the Green Line planning and fighting on the U campus back in 2006 or so, I can tell you that Tcmetro is exactly describing how the considerations went there. The University wanted the line tunneled so they wouldn't have to change anything about the way that Washington operated. A surface-running line was transformational because it *HAD TO BE* transformational; a tunnel would have let them keep the status quo. And everybody on this board acts like all urban planners and entities want transformational change, but that's really rarely true. The U campus is MUCH IMPROVED because of the street-running light rail, and in retrospect I suspect all parties would agree; but in 2006, that change was viewed as a threat, as an unknown that would cost the University money and might disrupt or even destroy the place that they already knew. The U was lobbying for the tunnel because they didn't want the risks associated with change.

It's possible that a collection of small business along Broadway would be more open to change than the University was, but I doubt it. The compelling argument for a tunnel is that it doesn't require anything to change, and for businesses and community groups that's comforting because it doesn't introduce new unknown variables. While it's true that a tunnel would *allow* reconsideration of the street above, it's not likely to bring it about. Street running, which in this instance I think is a bad idea, does have the characteristic of forcing redesign of the street space, which is what happened along all of University.

I continue to think elevated lines are incredibly unlikely, for a variety of political and pragmatic reasons, but they fall somewhere between the two choices - they're more disruptive than tunnels, as they do require some change in the urban form, but mostly because of the way they divide the streetspace, so it's possible to maintain the current form with the exception of some new barriers and a wider median. Both of which make the street space less friendly imo.

alexschief
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby alexschief » July 14th, 2021, 10:15 am

I understand the Washington Ave example and it shouldn't be dismissed. Obviously if a tunnel was proposed and the status quo was kept, that would be a real nightmare scenario.

But at the same time, I think it's inarguable that the politics and practices around street design have changed massively since the Central Corridor was in planning fifteen years ago. It would be a big departure from recent work and adopted policy if the city were to support a status quo design in the future on Broadway, in this hypothetical tunnel scenario. The electeds and the staff have changed dramatically.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 14th, 2021, 10:34 am

From a walking and biking perspective there's no doubt Washington Avenue is better than before the Green Line was built. From a transit operations standpoint though it's slow, lots of potential conflicts with pedestrians, bikers, and to a lesser extent cars. Also not sure if this is still the case or if they fixed it, but sometimes on the transit mall there was bus bunching and trains would have to wait for the bus traffic to clear. Overall though I think at-grade on Washington was the best choice.

University Avenue on the other hand is a very different story. While the Green Line changed it, it's still an unfriendly place for pedestrians and bikers. The way I see it is they could change it more by traffic calming, more space for bikers and walkers, etc. that could be a compromise since MnDOT isn't considering removing I-94 through that area. However, with the Green Line already taking space on University perhaps businesses along there won't want anymore change from the status quo, whereas if the Green Line were elevated or tunneled through there they may be more open to changes that give more space to bikers and pedestrians since light rail is above or below.

For the Blue Line on West Broadway, we'll just have to see what businesses and residences along there want, which I think can be split into these scenarios:
-no change at all to keep the status quo
-Blue Line at-grade but keeping the status quo as much as possible (like the Green Line on University)
-Blue Line at-grade as well as making the street more pedestrian and biker friendly (like the Green Line on Washington)
-Blue Line elevated to keep the status quo as much as possible
-Blue Line elevated to allow more space on the street level to make it more pedestrian and biker friendly

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 14th, 2021, 12:06 pm

In the meeting the Planner mentioned running it down 21st. It could go to Irving and a few houses and a bakery which has repeatedly hit by cars can be torn down where it transitions back to Broadway.

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 14th, 2021, 12:54 pm

In the meeting the Planner mentioned running it down 21st. It could go to Irving and a few houses and a bakery which has repeatedly hit by cars can be torn down where it transitions back to Broadway.
This would be good. If priority is given to the train especially at lyndale fremont emerson and the side streets with traffic gates. Because otherwise the train will be going to slow.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 14th, 2021, 1:04 pm

This would also provide easy access to 94 shall if go down the highway. The homes along there are pretty tired and wouldn't be missed overall for stations. You could also cut it through the Davis Center parking lot or even build a station at the lot if a small/development ramp or etc could be arranged with MPS.

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 14th, 2021, 10:52 pm

This would also provide easy access to 94 shall if go down the highway. The homes along there are pretty tired and wouldn't be missed overall for stations. You could also cut it through the Davis Center parking lot or even build a station at the lot if a small/development ramp or etc could be arranged with MPS.
Ya good luck with any plans that involve "some homes that wouldn't be missed"

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 15th, 2021, 7:25 am

This would also provide easy access to 94 shall if go down the highway. The homes along there are pretty tired and wouldn't be missed overall for stations. You could also cut it through the Davis Center parking lot or even build a station at the lot if a small/development ramp or etc could be arranged with MPS.
Ya good luck with any plans that involve "some homes that wouldn't be missed"
They're rundown rental properties with drug problems. One home is even marked as a "pharmacy" on Google maps. The number of homes wouldn't be much different than the homes already being torn down for apartments like the nearby Resolute on W. Broadway or at Penn and GVR.

As long as they keep it to a minimum they will be fine.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 15th, 2021, 8:29 am

From: "Our Lives Are On The Line: A Community Update from the Blue Line Coalition" event

The Harrison Neighborhood via the Blue Line Coalition are demanding they receive the promises they received from the Met Council during the prior alignment conversations before any new route moves forward. (They feel abandoned)

Demands include:

Sidewalk and Pedestrian Infrastructure Improvements
Affordable Housing Investments and Down Payment Investments
Want City owned garden improvements permanent
I think they're are more. They referred to a list on a Word document, but I didn't see it.

Also said that along the new route they want a New Deal like plan and policies. (Rent Control, Tenant Right to Own, Stricter Inclusionary Zoning etc etc)

They also mentioned broader wants including money from the State Budget to support Northside businesses broadly including from COVID.

https://www.facebook.com/thealliancetc/ ... 124511163/
Around 19 minutes & 32

Another note, they want anti-displacement work done before the route selection. "So once again folks aren't designing their own displacement."

Also they kept mentioning the injustices from 6th Street being replaced by Hwy 55. Does anyone know of a write up or study on the impacts or history of this?

Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » July 16th, 2021, 1:46 pm

See below for pdfs with more visualizations for each city along the route.

Robbinsdale Visualizations:

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... isual.aspx

Crystal Visualizations:

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... isual.aspx

Minneapolis Visualizations:

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... isual.aspx

gopherfan
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby gopherfan » July 16th, 2021, 2:34 pm

A new map for public comments is now live https://www.publiccoordinate.com/#/projects/BLRT/map

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 16th, 2021, 3:05 pm

From: "Our Lives Are On The Line: A Community Update from the Blue Line Coalition" event

The Harrison Neighborhood via the Blue Line Coalition are demanding they receive the promises they received from the Met Council during the prior alignment conversations before any new route moves forward. (They feel abandoned)

Demands include:

Sidewalk and Pedestrian Infrastructure Improvements
Affordable Housing Investments and Down Payment Investments
Want City owned garden improvements permanent
I think they're are more. They referred to a list on a Word document, but I didn't see it.

Also said that along the new route they want a New Deal like plan and policies. (Rent Control, Tenant Right to Own, Stricter Inclusionary Zoning etc etc)

They also mentioned broader wants including money from the State Budget to support Northside businesses broadly including from COVID.

https://www.facebook.com/thealliancetc/ ... 124511163/
Around 19 minutes & 32

Another note, they want anti-displacement work done before the route selection. "So once again folks aren't designing their own displacement."

Also they kept mentioning the injustices from 6th Street being replaced by Hwy 55. Does anyone know of a write up or study on the impacts or history of this?
This has some history about 6th street

https://twincitiesmusichighlights.net/venues/omhvenues/

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » July 19th, 2021, 8:21 am

From: "Our Lives Are On The Line: A Community Update from the Blue Line Coalition" event

The Harrison Neighborhood via the Blue Line Coalition are demanding they receive the promises they received from the Met Council during the prior alignment conversations before any new route moves forward. (They feel abandoned)

Demands include:

Sidewalk and Pedestrian Infrastructure Improvements
Affordable Housing Investments and Down Payment Investments
Want City owned garden improvements permanent
I think they're are more. They referred to a list on a Word document, but I didn't see it.

Also said that along the new route they want a New Deal like plan and policies. (Rent Control, Tenant Right to Own, Stricter Inclusionary Zoning etc etc)

They also mentioned broader wants including money from the State Budget to support Northside businesses broadly including from COVID.

https://www.facebook.com/thealliancetc/ ... 124511163/
Around 19 minutes & 32

Another note, they want anti-displacement work done before the route selection. "So once again folks aren't designing their own displacement."

Also they kept mentioning the injustices from 6th Street being replaced by Hwy 55. Does anyone know of a write up or study on the impacts or history of this?
This has some history about 6th street

https://twincitiesmusichighlights.net/venues/omhvenues/
Thanks for the link I found it informative.

Bakken2016
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Location: North Loop

Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » August 24th, 2021, 11:16 am

https://www.publiccoordinate.com/#/projects/BLRT/map

Don't forget to comment on this by August 31st, lots of NIMBY comments.

twincitizen
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby twincitizen » August 31st, 2021, 3:36 pm

Bump. I just reiterated a bunch of my comments from the earlier round.

-Supportive of further study of the yellow/red link through Metro Transit property. The potential ridership from a station at Washington/10th/Plymouth is simply too high to discount this option, unless we're certain it isn't feasible from a ROW standpoint.
-Supportive of further study of a split one-way LRT operation on Broadway/21st Ave, as well as a transit mall option on 21st Ave.
-Cautioning that the direct-looking route (Navy) along 7th is not a panacea due to potentially long delays at stoplights. Also cautioning not to make the intersection of 7th St/6th Ave N even worse for bikes and peds than it is today. Adding LRT may seriously impact opportunity to calm and narrow crossing distances for those not in cars/buses/trains.
-Generally pushing back against the snarky comments that a station serving the edge of north loop would only serve "wealthy white people in condos", which ignores the fact that POC (from both south and north Minneapolis) could ride the train to employment destinations here and/or transfer to bus connections to/from Plymouth Ave.

Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Silophant » August 31st, 2021, 4:37 pm

Additionally, while I'm sure it wouldn't get through to the average "condo's gentrifying the neighborhood" type, there are multiple shelters and subsidized affordable apartment buildings within a couple blocks of 10th Ave, in addition to all the jobs.

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » September 11th, 2021, 5:55 pm

Possible Blue Line extension route prompts opposition in Robbinsdale

https://m.startribune.com/possible-blue ... 600096181/

Bakken2016
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Location: North Loop

Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » September 11th, 2021, 6:01 pm

Oh good lord Robbinsdale….. you know what cuts your city in half, County Road 81!


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