Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » February 13th, 2021, 12:33 am

IIRC, a short segment of the tunnel on the north side of the airport was cut-and-cover. If that's the case, I don't know if that was a cost cutting measure or an engineering reason.

StandishGuy
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby StandishGuy » February 13th, 2021, 12:03 pm

I very much lean towards constructing a tunnel under W. Broadway because it will speed up service and leave room to redesign the corridor. The street needs to become far less car dominated with traffic calming, wider sidewalks, and tree-line boulevards/ streetscape in order to improve access to the new transit option. Just look at how bad University Avenue is for pedestrians with the Green Line. Slow service, an awful streetscape and busy and wide roadway make it pretty bleak.

Also, curious to know what folks think of the route on the way up to Broadway. I prefer an alignment to the east of I-94 through the North Loop serving the dense cluster of housing and jobs. It seems the west side of I-94 will already be well served by the C and D line ABRT lines running down Penn and Lyndale into downtown.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » February 13th, 2021, 1:05 pm

I very much lean towards constructing a tunnel under W. Broadway because it will speed up service and leave room to redesign the corridor. The street needs to become far less car dominated with traffic calming, wider sidewalks, and tree-line boulevards/ streetscape in order to improve access to the new transit option. Just look at how bad University Avenue is for pedestrians with the Green Line. Slow service, an awful streetscape and busy and wide roadway make it pretty bleak.

Also, curious to know what folks think of the route on the way up to Broadway. I prefer an alignment to the east of I-94 through the North Loop serving the dense cluster of housing and jobs. It seems the west side of I-94 will already be well served by the C and D line ABRT lines running down Penn and Lyndale into downtown.
That is literally my dream scenerio. Second place would be a tunnel that would connect with the 4th Street ramp and turn that ramp into one lane with the train making stops to connect it to the north loop.

Those would be difficult and expensive so probably my more realistic one would be to connect it to the Olsen highway ramp just south of Broadway and use that to connect to 7th Street.

All of these alternatives would make a stop at lyndale much easier. As the turn would be a few blocks after the station.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 13th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Good transit service is legible. Having a rail line that twists and curves and doesn't follow a simple route is not good practice, not to mention the increased cost. I'm not sure there's a way to place another station in the North Loop that doesn't create a lot of headaches. I'm also not sure it's necessary; most of the North Loop is already in the Target Field Station half-mile walkshed. The most cost-effective way to improve LRT access in the North Loop is probably to just continue improving the quality of the pedestrian realm, and removing or mitigating barriers like the I-94 ramps. LRT needs to be efficient, direct, and fast!

I think there's pretty widespread agreement that the route in North Minneapolis should fulfill two conditions:
- It will run from Target Field Station to Bottineau Boulevard at North Memorial Hospital
- Stations should be provided to make direct connections with the C (Penn) and D (Emerson/Fremont) bus lines.

In order to achieve those goals, planners have to make three choices. One of them, (at-grade or below-grade) is something we've been discussing. The other two have been discussed on the earlier pages:
- How do you get up/down?
- How do you get across?

The universe of conceivable solutions that people have put forward looks something like this:

- Up on Washington N (probably at-grade, further east than needed, medium-low disruption)
- Up using I-94 ROW (probably elevated, right-of-way easy to acquire, low disruption)
- Up on Lyndale N (probably at-grade, medium-low disruption)
- Up on Penn N (probably below-grade to avoid takes, redundant with C Line, high disruption)

- Across on Oslon Mem. (at-grade, engineering already largely done, medium-low disruption)
- Across on Broadway (at grade or below-grade, high disruption or high cost)

OR, the wildcard option:

- A diagonal bored tunnel (highest cost, but lowest surface impact)

(I've mentioned more than once) The sweet spot to me appears to be taking Lyndale N at grade, then turning onto Broadway either at-grade or below-grade (with one taking, the Cub site, which could be redeveloped) all the way. Three to five new stations (N. Memorial, Penn, Emerson/Fremont, and studied stations at 29th Ave and Plymouth).

gopherfan
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby gopherfan » February 14th, 2021, 11:44 am

(with one taking, the Cub site, which could be redeveloped)
Let's not turn North Minneapolis into a food desert. Unless Cub agreed to reopen in a development like what they did at Lowa Forty Six at Minnehaha. But they just reopened this store after the riots so I don't think the owners would be too thrilled about this. A temporary location like Lake St Cub had could be an option during disruption, but again it's not a good solution.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 14th, 2021, 1:08 pm

(with one taking, the Cub site, which could be redeveloped)
Let's not turn North Minneapolis into a food desert. Unless Cub agreed to reopen in a development like what they did at Lowa Forty Six at Minnehaha. But they just reopened this store after the riots so I don't think the owners would be too thrilled about this. A temporary location like Lake St Cub had could be an option during disruption, but again it's not a good solution.
I mean, this LRT construction would take place in several years at the minimum, I'm absolutely sure that keeping a grocery in this site would be the highest priority for any redevelopment (the timeline and construction staging make a lot of things possible to ensure no interruption of business, even), and these types of buildings are cheap to build and rebuild.

Need to make a distinction between problems to be solved and actual structural issues.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » February 14th, 2021, 1:38 pm

The Cub building is set back about 140' from Broadway - it doesn't look like it would be too challenging to make that turn without touching the building. Trains would have to slow down, of course, but that's not the end of the world, especially with (presumably) a station at Emerson only a quarter mile further down.

Here's the turn between American Boulevard and Bloomington Central crudely pasted onto that intersection, which is not nearly as tight as the turns the Green Line makes between Robert St and crossing 94.
Image
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alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 14th, 2021, 2:04 pm

The Cub building is set back about 140' from Broadway - it doesn't look like it would be too challenging to make that turn without touching the building. Trains would have to slow down, of course, but that's not the end of the world, especially with (presumably) a station at Emerson only a quarter mile further down.

Here's the turn between American Boulevard and Bloomington Central crudely pasted onto that intersection, which is not nearly as tight as the turns the Green Line makes between Robert St and crossing 94.
Image
Yeah, but you might need to take the property if you were sending it into a tunnel, I believe.

tmart
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » February 14th, 2021, 2:50 pm

I think there's pretty widespread agreement that the route in North Minneapolis should fulfill two conditions:
- It will run from Target Field Station to Bottineau Boulevard at North Memorial Hospital
- Stations should be provided to make direct connections with the C (Penn) and D (Emerson/Fremont) bus lines.

In order to achieve those goals, planners have to make three choices. One of them, (at-grade or below-grade) is something we've been discussing. The other two have been discussed on the earlier pages:
- How do you get up/down?
- How do you get across?

The universe of conceivable solutions that people have put forward looks something like this:

- Up on Washington N (probably at-grade, further east than needed, medium-low disruption)
- Up using I-94 ROW (probably elevated, right-of-way easy to acquire, low disruption)
- Up on Lyndale N (probably at-grade, medium-low disruption)
- Up on Penn N (probably below-grade to avoid takes, redundant with C Line, high disruption)

- Across on Oslon Mem. (at-grade, engineering already largely done, medium-low disruption)
- Across on Broadway (at grade or below-grade, high disruption or high cost)

OR, the wildcard option:

- A diagonal bored tunnel (highest cost, but lowest surface impact)
I think this is a pretty solid rundown of the options on offer.

Some stray thoughts on these options:
  • The existing configuration of Target Field Station is such that the extension will start above-grade. The old plans called for it to descend to ground level immediately, but I'd like to see some explorations of elevated routes for the portion in and near the North Loop.
  • A station on the far end of the North Loop (somewhere in the ballpark of 10th Ave) absolutely deserves consideration. It would be 1/2 to 2/3 of a mile from Target Field (so, much larger than the existing downtown station spacing) and that side of the neighborhood is growing fast with room to keep going.
  • A thing to consider with any tunnel options (whether cut-and-cover or bored) is that a lot of the difficulties and costs are incurred at the stations. Emerson/Fremont station would almost certainly be underground; Penn likely would be. Station access for either would likely involve taking some properties, though there are some very car-oriented lots (mostly parking) in the vicinity of Emerson/Fremont, and what appear to be a few vacant lots near Penn.
  • OTOH Lowry/North Memorial probably makes more sense as an above-ground stop, even though the six-ish-way spaghetti junction makes squeezing it in a bit gnarly.
  • One thing that's nice about a 94 alignment, if paired with a West Broadway tunnel, is that a reconfigured freeway ditch could be used to house the tunnel portal, and maybe even squeeze in an above-ground (i.e., cheaper/less disruptive) station on the southwest side of Broadway/94 to serve the east side of the neighborhood. Paired with some ped/bike-focused improvements on Broadway crossing 94 and eastward, it could also spur some redevelopment closer to the river, and even some connections to Northeast.
  • Another thing that's nice about a 94 alignment is that it could be an opportunity to argue for completely tearing out/repurposing the 4th St Viaduct though unfortunately probably not in time to stop more money being poured into that albatross this summer.
  • Tearing down Cub would be a big deal. I agree that it's possible to come up with robust accommodations but it's a hard needle to thread--convincing Cub that it won't destroy their business, and convincing activists that the short-term solution will be adequate and whatever long-term solution will be both financially sustainable and affordable in the long term. I'd place a premium on not disrupting (the non-parking parts of) Cub, more than almost anywhere else in the corridor.
  • A Lowry stop sure would make bus improvements on Lowry look a lot more attractive (as a feeder line). I know the recent aBRT study deferred on that line (until after the Blue Line Extension gets sorted out) but it would be great to have ready to open on Day 1 of Bottineau service.
  • Looking a little further to the northwest, I'm a bit surprised that even in the earliest study documents, 38th St doesn't seem to have ever been considered as a stop; at 1.6mi there's a long gap between North Memorial and Robbinsdale for still being a relatively populous area. I'd like to see that reconsidered; if still rejected, then maybe the Lowry Ave bus line I just mentioned could be extended west on 36th to provide some feeder service to destinations in Crystal.

grant1simons2
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby grant1simons2 » February 15th, 2021, 4:37 pm

Was there ever alignment discussion from 7th to Dupont, then onto Broadway? Dupont is somewhat wide, and this 90 degree could possibly work.

Image
Hmm

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 4th, 2021, 4:53 pm

I was driving on Zane from Oak Grove parkway to 63rd and jus kept wondering why isn't the blue line coming here instead of West Broadway. There are so many apartment buildings in this stretch many that are affordable. A shopping center at Brooklyn Blvd, Hy-Vee and cub near 610 rowhouses to the east of Zane on oak grove. And it could still connect to target north campus.

I could see the blue line leaving 81 and crossing over to 63rd avenue and then heading north on Zane.

What do y'all think?

Tcmetro
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » March 4th, 2021, 5:30 pm

Zane is a way stronger corridor from the residential perspective, but Broadway has the major shopping center (Brooklyn Blvd), the community college (85th), and the Target Campus (Oak Grove).

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 4th, 2021, 6:03 pm

Zane is a way stronger corridor from the residential perspective, but Broadway has the major shopping center (Brooklyn Blvd), the community college (85th), and the Target Campus (Oak Grove).
The target campus can easily be served by a Zane routing too. The shopping center is a loss but I think the node by Zane and 610 is going to feature a lot more development in the upcoming years and stores will come. And the college is literally the only ridership driver north of Brooklyn blvd. There isn't much dense housing there.

Tcmetro
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » March 4th, 2021, 6:53 pm

The college has about 10,000 students and is probably a bigger traffic generator than the Target Campus.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 4th, 2021, 8:18 pm

The college has about 10,000 students and is probably a bigger traffic generator than the Target Campus.
Thats a really good point! Hopefully with the inclusion of the 724 in the aBRT study they will look at Zane as a future route for more service from Brooklyn Center Transit to Oak Grove Station.

tmart
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » March 10th, 2021, 4:23 pm

Strib reporter on Twitter saying we should get news about a potential new alignment tomorrow. Brace yourselves, people.

https://twitter.com/ByJanetMoore/status ... 24961?s=19

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm

NRRC sent out a Zoom link for it.

uptownbro
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby uptownbro » March 10th, 2021, 4:27 pm

As a life long vikings fan, im ready to be let down.
I truly hope the new route will serve the cities northside vs what was previously proposed but I feel they will still go with the cheapest option
Last edited by uptownbro on March 10th, 2021, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 10th, 2021, 4:31 pm

From the agenda, it looks like they are providing options and Evaluation next steps


http://metrocouncil.granicus.com/Docume ... pdf&view=1

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 10th, 2021, 5:15 pm

It sucks to be so far removed from the process. And have no input (besides surveys and comments) on what one of the biggest capital projects ever in the regions.

As much as we argue over the details. There is actually a decent range of acceptable options. Lyndale or 94 to Broadway. Tunnel or at grade. While we argue over the details, the end result will be better then the original route. (outside of Penn Ave to olsen in mixed traffic or something crazy like that). And we will still most likely have a decent transit project when all is said and done.

This process just shows how we need a stronger transit rider coalition to have a seat at the table.

Hopefully tomorrow we can celebrate a good route.


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