Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 11th, 2021, 2:33 pm

Whoa, accused of sneaking this in while people are distracted by the trial.
Yea, I am just shaking my head. This is preliminary, they are acting like this is the routing.
I also thought they were a little rough on Lowry Ave.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 11th, 2021, 2:36 pm

The original line was trash, let's stop defending that. And I am glad they ruled out highway 100.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 11th, 2021, 2:38 pm

I hope someone asks about Broadway and a tunnel

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 2:51 pm

Regarding an I-94 alignment that could open the door for another light rail route along I-94, keep in mind the tracks in downtown are already at capacity. Another light rail line will require either grade-separation or another downtown alignment.
Coming from the north it could turn at 394 right after target Field station and either go west to West end or South to uptown turning on lyndale/hennepin

Or it could be the impetus needed to push for grade separation. by the time anything would be built in that direction it would likely be in 2030 which would make it 25 years since the original alignment was put in. I think at that point it's not preposterous to talk about a new alignment downtown keeping the at grade for a streetcar. I think we could pull off a cut and cover there.

I think we can all agree that at grade through downtown for both of our truck lines is not a good solution

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 11th, 2021, 2:58 pm

I warned you all about push-back. You can see some of it already popping up with regards to displacement and gentrification and adverse affects. Depending on how they handle this will determine if this lives or dies.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 3:07 pm

I warned you all about push-back. You can see some of it already popping up with regards to displacement and gentrification and adverse affects. Depending on how they handle this will determine if this lives or dies.
Is there a link to the zoom call? Or where are you getting this from.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 11th, 2021, 3:09 pm

I warned you all about push-back. You can see some of it already popping up with regards to displacement and gentrification and adverse affects. Depending on how they handle this will determine if this lives or dies.
Is there a link to the zoom call? Or where are you getting this from.
It will be posted later here
http://metrocouncil.granicus.com/ViewPu ... B7QaAM2xyM

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » March 11th, 2021, 4:06 pm

Some of these concerns derailed North Minneapolis routes in the past (or at least, were used as a justification to support a route that whisked suburbanites past the northside). But I think the politics and the politicians have changed substantially. I don't believe that this argument that the northside should be purposely starved of investment in order to prevent gentrification is likely to have any sway. As the Stops For Us campaign demonstrated a decade ago, people are more interested in having access to good transit.

I'd also point out that the report that came out today has a notable section on "Anti-Displacement and Community Wealth Building Efforts," so clearly this issue is top of mind for the Met Council and the County.

tmart
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » March 11th, 2021, 4:47 pm

Some of these concerns derailed North Minneapolis routes in the past (or at least, were used as a justification to support a route that whisked suburbanites past the northside). But I think the politics and the politicians have changed substantially. I don't believe that this argument that the northside should be purposely starved of investment in order to prevent gentrification is likely to have any sway. As the Stops For Us campaign demonstrated a decade ago, people are more interested in having access to good transit.

I'd also point out that the report that came out today has a notable section on "Anti-Displacement and Community Wealth Building Efforts," so clearly this issue is top of mind for the Met Council and the County.
Specifically I think it's significant that Councilmembers Ellison and Cunningham have expressed their desire for a route that more directly serves North. Neither of those two were on the Council when the original route was chosen.

StandishGuy
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby StandishGuy » March 11th, 2021, 7:40 pm

Oof! Hennepin County has already spent more than $200 million planning this route. :(

I hope they go with the routes up Washington Ave better serving the already dense and growing neighborhood. The I94 and Lyndale alignments have such low population densities south of Broadway.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » March 11th, 2021, 9:23 pm

It's true that the Washington Ave and I-94 areas don't really have anyone living near them, but remember that it's stations that serve people, not lines. For all of the alternatives being suggested, they will each likely serve only one station, maybe two for the North Loop alternatives. It doesn't matter who is near the line, only near the station.

Even the alternative that runs up Lyndale N (which I support because it's the fastest and most legible route) and runs closest to the most people won't really offer a great station location. I suppose they may propose one at Plymouth and Lyndale, and that is a pretty marginal location. You could probably make an argument that a station on Washington would have more future ridership potential and similar current ridership to a Plymouth and Lyndale location!

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 12th, 2021, 8:47 am

Some of these concerns derailed North Minneapolis routes in the past (or at least, were used as a justification to support a route that whisked suburbanites past the northside). But I think the politics and the politicians have changed substantially. I don't believe that this argument that the northside should be purposely starved of investment in order to prevent gentrification is likely to have any sway. As the Stops For Us campaign demonstrated a decade ago, people are more interested in having access to good transit.

I'd also point out that the report that came out today has a notable section on "Anti-Displacement and Community Wealth Building Efforts," so clearly this issue is top of mind for the Met Council and the County.
Specifically I think it's significant that Councilmembers Ellison and Cunningham have expressed their desire for a route that more directly serves North. Neither of those two were on the Council when the original route was chosen.
When gentrification and displacement came up during the meeting it was not Ellison or Cunningham who stepped in, but Mayor Elliot who I thought was impressive. Ellison has on his campaign site preventing displacement as one of his priorities. Once more details come out we will know more where people stand. Felicia Perry, is supporting her friend Kristel Porter in the Ward 5 Council Race. Politically they could come out against this say they don't want displacement and colonization of W. Broadway and weaponize the issue against Ellison.

On the other end you have Tim Baylor in support and he has significant influence to offset the naysayers.

This likely will turn into a game a politics, not so much a game of facts and RoW and etc. There is a chance I'm wrong, but given that we've already heard pushback and about lack of engagement and even allegations of using the Floyd Trial as cover for releasing the routes shows that the Met Council is going to have to be deft in their navigation.

One of those in the Meeting said it felt like they went back in time. That routes going through central parts of Northside were discussed previously and the barriers led to the old route. Then now they are again. Former County Commissioner Higgins also voiced similiar opinions.

Looks like Fernando is asking for caution as well

"Hennepin County Commissioner Irene Fernando, who represents the city's North Side, says she worries whether some residents will be able to afford to stay in their homes once light rail comes to the neighborhood. At the same time, she said the project could have a transformative effect on the area."

https://www.startribune.com/reboot-of-b ... 600032979/

DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 12th, 2021, 9:54 am

I'm not a Northsider so I don't have a horse in this race, but I hear all the time about wanting to change North Minneapolis for the better, but as soon as the Met Council proposes rerouting the Blue Line to the North Side there's suddenly opposition for fear of gentrification and community impacts, as well as a conspiracy that this announcement was timed with the Derek Chauvin trial. If they truly want change then I would think they would be fully on board with the Blue Line as it would likely be a step forward. Is there a risk? Yes, but any attempt at change will have a risk. It's either that or the status quo, and I know many people are tired of the status quo.

Anondson
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » March 12th, 2021, 10:03 am

Let’s not forget that large neighborhoods are made up of complex collections of people with widespread view points.

It is guaranteed there will be some who want no change that is disruptive at any cost.

Others will accept and demand change that might require sacrifices even to themselves.

All in the same neighborhood, but we shouldn’t be surprised there are different voices expressing different opinions.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 12th, 2021, 10:12 am

I'm not a Northsider so I don't have a horse in this race, but I hear all the time about wanting to change North Minneapolis for the better, but as soon as the Met Council proposes rerouting the Blue Line to the North Side there's suddenly opposition for fear of gentrification and community impacts, as well as a conspiracy that this announcement was timed with the Derek Chauvin trial. If they truly want change then I would think they would be fully on board with the Blue Line as it would likely be a step forward. Is there a risk? Yes, but any attempt at change will have a risk. It's either that or the status quo, and I know many people are tired of the status quo.
The problem is people go more off of feelings and emotions then logic at times. In the Northside I've also realized people are very territorial. But, standing in the way locals can gain power and leverage and further their own agendas and views.

If I were Ellison I would work with Felicia and Baylor and Frey to get support for and establish W. Broadway as the premier cultural location for African American Culture. I would try to get agreements use the Land Bank or buy those old streetcar buildings, get them rehabbed and arrange low rents for BIPOC communities for a very long time. These buildings and businesses are pennies compared to this project. But, they are worth a lot to the community. Also create some sort of BIPOC focused housing as TOD. The County owns the lot next to the rehabbed Capri, build a Northside arts building there. Maybe first floor an art gallery and a cafe, BIPOC themed store and above that housing for artists. Then have all of this controlled by the local community with buy-in and not be orchestrated from the outside. Basically Ellison needs to work like you know what to do this.

Then you route the LRT through and it will results in change and some displacement, but if you can get these core areas establish and make W. Broadway a destination for African American Culture in the Upper Midwest people wouldn't care so much about those other changes.

With all this said, Ellison does little and I don't see that we have leadership to do this. Someone needs to get everyone together and create a solution, otherwise everyone will just argue.

Also people need to engage and not forget the non-BIPOC folks. Friedman's is still there and reportedly feels abandoned a bit in terms of safety and with the focus being on BIPOC communities and not Jewish and non-BIPOC businesses. But they will be impacted as well. Kemps is also huge...and probably has the most money invested in W. Broadway.

fehler
Rice Park
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby fehler » March 12th, 2021, 10:34 am

I'm liking Pink to Red to Green, for a Warehouse District station and a Broadway/Washington station before crossing I-94.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 12th, 2021, 10:48 am

We need leadership to make it happen.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 12th, 2021, 11:00 am

I'm liking Pink to Red to Green, for a Warehouse District station and a Broadway/Washington station before crossing I-94.
Broadway and Washington station wouldn't be a thing as the routing starts crossing 94 at 17th Ave. So probably the first place you could do have it would be 16th Ave as you don't want to have the station on a curve. At that point your just 4 blocks away from plymouth. And considering they will most likely have a lyndale/Broadway station makes a 16th/Washington station extremely unnecessary.

twincitizen
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 12th, 2021, 4:23 pm

From the meeting, a map overview of the routes. They did say the red link would go at grade on 10th ave and washington ave.
I think we should all strongly advocate for the pink route over the blue route. On paper, blue appears more direct and thereby faster, but those stoplights (7th/Olson, 7th/I-94) could be absolutely brutal in terms of delays for the train, cars/buses, and make a bad biking situation even worse. Due to the vast width of the ROW on 7th, I can guarantee that Blue is a surface running route. The Pink route, by necessity, would be elevated departing Target Field Station, continuing elevated over the bus driveway at Heywood Garage, and diagonally over Metro Transit's surface parking lot at 5th St/8th Ave, before descending to a surface dedicated guideway running parallel to the I-94 viaducts. I think no matter which option you prefer beyond 10th Avenue North, the pink route should 100% be everyone's preference departing Target Field. Space willing, if they can someone squeeze an elevated guideway between the new MTPD building and Junction Flats apartments, that is absolutely the way to go. Aside from crossing Schafer-Richardson's surface parking lot there, that pink route is 100% Metro Transit and MnDOT property.

Personally, my preference departing Target Field Station is Pink to Red, and beyond that I am willing to listen and learn more about the tradeoffs between Green/Broadway and Orange/Lowry. That said, I am deeply skeptical about 10th Avenue N being wide enough to accommodate LRT (and cars, bike lanes and sidewalks). And because of the broken nature of the North Loop street grid, you can't easily say "just ban cars", because 10th is literally the only connection from one side of the viaducts to the other. We could potentially displace bikes to a new bikeway following an 8th Avenue alignment under the viaducts, which is something people have been pushing for anyways. I can buy that 10th Avenue could carry LRT for a short transitional section to cross under the I-94 viaducts, but I don't really buy that 10th can fit LRT from 4th St to Washington. It would seem easier to cross under the viaducts on 10th and then quickly turn northward up the east side of the viaducts ROW. Regardless of how the details are worked out, I am enamored with the idea of a station near Washington/10th/Plymouth (likely on Washington between 10th & Plymouth?), to serve the far northern reaches of the North Loop, as well as spurring development further north up Washington. I don't think it's crazy to imagine that a station at Washington/10th-Plymouth could have the highest ridership on the entire extension, due to the existing population and job density.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » March 24th, 2021, 8:03 am

I just watched SWLRT flyover again. The distance and number of bridges is outstanding. Why couldn't they just elevate this straight through the Northside bottlenecks and somehow not make it hideous? Also this would fix the safety and border wall aspects of this project. An LRT line/border wall dividing the Northside between the Highs and Lows gangs isn't a great idea. W. Broadway needs to be unified, not divided by a train. I also completely expect a car or two to smash straight into a train in one of the cross streets and kill some people. Elevating the train would do away with some of this.


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