Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
alexschief
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby alexschief » June 11th, 2021, 10:49 am

I'm not saying that this couldn't ultimately kill the project or that this isn't how Robbinsdale feels right now, but I think people should treat future threats like this with some skepticism.

Think of it like the opening salvos of a negotiation. Robbinsdale will lay out their issues with the alignment, the Met Council will propose some mitigation strategies, and they'll go back and forth. All the while, there will be political pressure from the state and neighboring communities to reach an accommodation. There will be at least one election as well. It's easier to negotiate with a small municipality than it is with a freight railroad giant.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » June 11th, 2021, 1:17 pm

I glanced at the maps, there is no way to route this around Robbinsdale. Maybe Broadway to Penn to Brooklyn Blvd to Bottineau? I have to say given the drastic changes and risks N Mpls faces from this through construction, it's insulting that Robbinsdale is afraid their car-centric strip-mall commercial district will be ruined. I don't think going back to BNSF is a terrible idea however...(then I live 6 blocks from a potential station so I'm biased.)

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2021, 2:03 pm

There's a good opportunity here to make Bottineau Blvd not terrible in Robbinsdale. If Broadway gets slimmed to one lane each way, that should be continued up to 42nd St/Hwy 100. North of there, it's probably a lost cause to do traffic calming, but hopefully they can do a good job at Bass Lake and 63rd.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » June 11th, 2021, 2:46 pm

Anyone know the width of Bottineau Blvd at its narrowest?

EOst
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby EOst » June 11th, 2021, 3:29 pm

It’s about 100’, give or take. Still fairly narrow, but feasible.

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2021, 3:54 pm

The county is rebuilding the Broadway/Lowry/Wirth interchange. That is completely insane and is going to be more difficult for rail to go through.

It seems that it would be fine to have Lowry/Oakdale intersect with Broadway and close off Wirth Pkwy from connecting through for cars.

Here's the project page for those who are interested:
https://www.hennepin.us/west-broadway-bridges

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 4th, 2021, 1:09 pm

I'd love to see a pop up bus route on the route of the future Blue Line with limited stops like the future train will have. Unlike the Green Line this alignment mostly follows roads so it wouldn't be hard to put a bus on the future route.

Why wait to connect people to where they need to go when we have decided that this route is important enough to spend billions on.

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 4th, 2021, 2:02 pm

I'd love to see a pop up bus route on the route of the future Blue Line with limited stops like the future train will have. Unlike the Green Line this alignment mostly follows roads so it wouldn't be hard to put a bus on the future route.

Why wait to connect people to where they need to go when we have decided that this route is important enough to spend billions on.
Because there's already various bus routes that cover the area the Blue Line Extension route will serve; mainly local routes that spread out from Brooklyn Center Transit Center and can be reached via the limited-stop C Line. Also I'm sure Metro Transit doesn't favor spending money on a limited-stop bus route that probably wouldn't get a lot riders due to the pandemic, stations that would be just a bus shelter along a busy highway, and the fact that it would be a regular bus and not a train.

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 4th, 2021, 2:21 pm

Those are fair points. On a side note, I forgot if this was mentioned earlier but there are 2 robbinsdale open houses about the blue line. Considering they were thinking about revoking their municipal consent this might be something that's worth attending.

July 19 - Robbinsdale UCC Church - 4200 Lake Road - Open House - 4:30 - 7:00 p.m.

July 22 - Sanborn Park picnic shelter hosted by Council Member Sheila Webb Open House 6 - 8 p.m.

Also here are some visualizations of the LRT in the robbinsdale area. Including a potential elevated section in the range of 40th-42nd.

https://www.robbinsdalemn.com/home/show ... 7415400000

I think that that would be a great idea. And I could also see it working well both at Bass Lake Rd and when the light rail leaves 81 and goes on west broadway.

I am just curious as to how an elevated station would work with it still being center running. I think the best solution would be to connect the stairs and the elevators to the east and west sides of 81 creating a wider station area but I doubt they would do that. And dropping you off from stairs and and elevator in the middle of a street where you still have to cross the highway could be problematic.

Also it says they are shooting fora planned opening of 2028

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » July 4th, 2021, 2:34 pm

Isn’t it frustrating though that they will consider elevated for Robinsdale because the city council doesn’t want to lose lanes, but we won’t considered elevated or tunnels through North Minneapolis….


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Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 4th, 2021, 2:59 pm

Isn’t it frustrating though that they will consider elevated for Robinsdale because the city council doesn’t want to lose lanes, but we won’t considered elevated or tunnels through North Minneapolis….


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I don't think it's been confirmed that elevated or tunnels isn't being considered in Minneapolis. Although I agree it's probably not likely. People will consider it on 81 cause it's treated like a highway while broadway in Minneapolis is considered more of a street with businesses by it and God forbid that they have an elevated rail next to a business or apartment building.

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 4th, 2021, 3:48 pm

Tunnels under North Minneapolis and Uptown: Too expensive.
Bridges across highways and stroads, and tunnels under the airport and Kenilworth: Absolutely necessary and worth the price tag.

Sometimes I don't get the Met Council's logic.

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 4th, 2021, 6:04 pm

Tunnels under North Minneapolis and Uptown: Too expensive.
Bridges across highways and stroads, and tunnels under the airport and Kenilworth: Absolutely necessary and worth the price tag.

Sometimes I don't get the Met Council's logic.
Bridges are much much cheaper then tunnels and especially underground stations. It has been confirmed that although no underground stations will be apart of it. Elevated will be considered in stretches and elevated parts over Broadway is something that we can and should push for.

Having strategic elevated sections at major intersections and right in, right out at most of the smaller streets would allow for similar operational reliability as a tunnel for fractions of the price.

This reminds me of what the blue line does in LA. It is elevated for many major crossings. But remains at grade in between those major crossings.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 4th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Tunnels under North Minneapolis and Uptown: Too expensive.
Bridges across highways and stroads, and tunnels under the airport and Kenilworth: Absolutely necessary and worth the price tag.

Sometimes I don't get the Met Council's logic.
Bridges are much much cheaper then tunnels and especially underground stations. It has been confirmed that although no underground stations will be apart of it. Elevated will be considered in stretches and elevated parts over Broadway is something that we can and should push for.

Having strategic elevated sections at major intersections and right in, right out at most of the smaller streets would allow for similar operational reliability as a tunnel for fractions of the price.

This reminds me of what the blue line does in LA. It is elevated for many major crossings. But remains at grade in between those major crossings.
The Blue Line (as well as the Expo Line) also has an underground section in downtown. Plus there's the Regional Connector project that will extend the underground section and allow through-routing with the existing Gold Line.

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » July 5th, 2021, 1:02 am

Tunnels under North Minneapolis and Uptown: Too expensive.
Bridges across highways and stroads, and tunnels under the airport and Kenilworth: Absolutely necessary and worth the price tag.

Sometimes I don't get the Met Council's logic.
Bridges are much much cheaper then tunnels and especially underground stations. It has been confirmed that although no underground stations will be apart of it. Elevated will be considered in stretches and elevated parts over Broadway is something that we can and should push for.

Having strategic elevated sections at major intersections and right in, right out at most of the smaller streets would allow for similar operational reliability as a tunnel for fractions of the price.

This reminds me of what the blue line does in LA. It is elevated for many major crossings. But remains at grade in between those major crossings.
The Blue Line (as well as the Expo Line) also has an underground section in downtown. Plus there's the Regional Connector project that will extend the underground section and allow through-routing with the existing Gold Line.
I'm talking bout the blue line segment south of washington station before it goes to long beach. The stations between pico and washington are what I'm scared will happen to the blue line extension where it really slows down a lot and gets stuck behind a lot of lights at grade because there is no grade seperation.

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 5th, 2021, 6:51 am



Bridges are much much cheaper then tunnels and especially underground stations. It has been confirmed that although no underground stations will be apart of it. Elevated will be considered in stretches and elevated parts over Broadway is something that we can and should push for.

Having strategic elevated sections at major intersections and right in, right out at most of the smaller streets would allow for similar operational reliability as a tunnel for fractions of the price.

This reminds me of what the blue line does in LA. It is elevated for many major crossings. But remains at grade in between those major crossings.
The Blue Line (as well as the Expo Line) also has an underground section in downtown. Plus there's the Regional Connector project that will extend the underground section and allow through-routing with the existing Gold Line.
I'm talking bout the blue line segment south of washington station before it goes to long beach. The stations between pico and washington are what I'm scared will happen to the blue line extension where it really slows down a lot and gets stuck behind a lot of lights at grade because there is no grade seperation.
Right, but I'm pointing out that LA also has an underground section of their light rail network, and it's expanding with the Regional Connector. Also I believe the Crenshaw/LAX line will have a mix of bridges and tunnels at major intersections.

That's not to say I don't support elevating the Blue Line Extension through North Minneapolis, but how will residents and businesses in the area feel about it? On one hand it's grade-separated so no need to take away space from the movement and storage of cars on ground level, but on the other hand it would be a massive viaduct and, while stations would definitely still be ADA compliant, wouldn't be as accessible as an at-grade station platform. Modern viaducts are of course not as bad as old viaducts from legacy transit systems like what you see in Chicago, but I'm not sure that will convince stakeholders in North Minneapolis that elevating through there is the best option.

NickP
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby NickP » July 5th, 2021, 9:53 am

Unless they are careful, I would also think having it be elevated would feel like it’s dividing the community in half along Broadway.

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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby MNdible » July 5th, 2021, 10:34 am

If the make a really ugly viaduct, that would reduce fears of LRT causing gentrification, right?

tmart
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby tmart » July 5th, 2021, 12:55 pm

I tried to sketch out a "moderate" plan that would still allow good travel times with no underground stations and without going fully elevated (and in particular, without a big viaduct running down the main commercial street): https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

By using an elevated alignment through the North Loop and across 94, it can make up some time that will be lost in the next slower at-grade section. (This is a combination of the "navy" and "pink" alignments in the survey.) A station at 10th would serve the Loop and the train would quickly cross the highway by paralleling (or replacing ;) ) the Southbound 3rd St Viaduct. (For extra credit, we could "rethink I-94" and use a a station at 94/Broadway as a future park-and-ride, with an ABC-style ramp over a narrowed highway serving as a car terminus.)

It then runs a bit less than a mile at-grade along the heart of Broadway; there would probably need to be some intersections closed/left turns banned to keep things rolling here but it keeps an "ugly" viaduct from cutting the neighborhood in half. The only station in this segment would be at Emerson/Fremont.

Next it goes back up to elevated at roughly Knox (negotiable; this is where the road starts to have boulevards and two-way turn lanes). Probably the most controversial aspect would be having a viaduct and elevated station at Penn (especially given some of the taller apartments around here) but avoiding all the weird intersections (particularly the Penn/Broadway five-way) would be a big boost to speeds, and the road already acts as a bit of a divider anyway (in contrast to the earlier commercial street area).

It would cross over the Parkway and then have an elevated station serving Lowry and North Memorial, then come down to grade for a mile to save costs, since Bottineau becomes highway-like with limited access and large widths. (If the cost savings aren't significant compared to just elevating the whole thing, it would be fine to keep this part elevated too.) A stop at-grade at 36th would serve businesses, apartments, and the park.

It would elevate again entering Downtown Robbinsdale, with an elevated station at 42nd St, remain elevated past the 100 interchange, and then come down to running at-grade in the highway median for the remainder of the line. (I'm not at all opposed to having it elevated all the way to Bass Lake if it's needed to placate drivers' concerns about potentially losing a lane each way, but I don't think it's a high spending priority from a transit perspective.)

alexschief
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby alexschief » July 6th, 2021, 8:34 am

Tunnels under North Minneapolis and Uptown: Too expensive.
Bridges across highways and stroads, and tunnels under the airport and Kenilworth: Absolutely necessary and worth the price tag.

Sometimes I don't get the Met Council's logic.
Bridges are much much cheaper then tunnels and especially underground stations. It has been confirmed that although no underground stations will be apart of it. Elevated will be considered in stretches and elevated parts over Broadway is something that we can and should push for.

Having strategic elevated sections at major intersections and right in, right out at most of the smaller streets would allow for similar operational reliability as a tunnel for fractions of the price.

This reminds me of what the blue line does in LA. It is elevated for many major crossings. But remains at grade in between those major crossings.
The rule of thumb I've heard is that elevated stations are about 3X the cost of at-grade, and underground stations are about 5X the cost. That being said, costs can get out of control for all types of stations (see Boston's GLX for an example of how costs got out-of-control for at-grade stations, or see Seattle's proposed Ballard extension for an example of out-of-control elevated station design). Ensuring that either elevated or underground stations are simple and do not include mezzanine levels is extremely important. If building a station underground, opening up the street is far more preferable to mining.

The other part of this is that it's not wise to dismiss a project on the basis of cost alone, costs must be weighed against benefits. I think the benefits of a tunnel in North Minneapolis would be substantial, because they would allow the streetscape above to be completely redesigned. A tunnel would also eliminate the potential barrier effect, offer more protection from the weather, and also (like an elevated line) provide travel time savings.

I don't know or not what is or isn't warranted, but it's disappointing that the Met Council seems unwilling to even look into the possibility. As others mentioned, the threshold for departing from grade seems to be less in the suburbs than in the city, which is backwards.


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