Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » September 13th, 2021, 8:41 am

Wow!

"City Council Member George Selman, another longtime light-rail supporter, was more blunt.

"Bill pressed the red button. I'm pounding on it," he said. "It's not going to go on Bottineau Boulevard if there's anything I can do to stop it.""

DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » September 13th, 2021, 9:19 am

Disappointed but not surprised to see this opposition to sacrificing road capacity for transit.

Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » September 13th, 2021, 9:20 am

Disappointed but not surprised to see this opposition to sacrificing road capacity for transit.
I have a strong feeling this will force Hennepin County and Met Council to elevate it.


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Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » September 13th, 2021, 2:06 pm

Disappointed but not surprised to see this opposition to sacrificing road capacity for transit.
I have a strong feeling this will force Hennepin County and Met Council to elevate it.


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Which could be the best option

Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » September 13th, 2021, 2:06 pm

Disappointed but not surprised to see this opposition to sacrificing road capacity for transit.
I have a strong feeling this will force Hennepin County and Met Council to elevate it.


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Which could be the best option
I don’t disagree, elevated would be great!


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DanPatchToget
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby DanPatchToget » September 13th, 2021, 2:34 pm

To me it would be a double standard though. What makes Bottineau Blvd through Robbinsdale more important for elevated light rail than the various segments of existing and planned light rail (e.g. the alignments through both downtowns, the Blue Line along Hiawatha Avenue and 34th Avenue, the Green Line along University, etc.)?

Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Silophant » September 13th, 2021, 3:47 pm

I don't know, they're different projects being planned decades apart. I fully agree that the downtown sections of the Blue and Green Lines, and at the very least the major intersection crossings of the Green Line along University should have been grade-separated, but now that we know those were mistakes, I'd prefer that we learn from them rather than doubling down. If nothing else, having a faster ride in the suburban sections of the Blue and Green Lines (due to grade separation being used where feasible) that then slows to a crawl at Target Field should help build support for an eventual downtown tunnel.

My fear would be that they wind up doing an elevated section through Robbinsdale to allow cars to zoom freely there, but then dropping back to an at-grade alignment that stops at every light in North Minneapolis.

tmart
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby tmart » September 13th, 2021, 4:22 pm

I agree that there's something symbolic and frustrating about elevating in the suburbs but not grade-separating in the densest, highest-ridership, slowest-moving parts of the corridor. But as Silophant alluded, the lesson to take away from that frustration is not that two wrongs will make a right.

Overall I think elevating through Robbinsdale would be a good outcome, but I also think it's time to start evaluating contingencies. If Robbinsdale wants to play hardball, then Metro Transit and the Met Council should be prepared to terminate at North Memorial or 36th, or consider more creative alternatives like a tram-style configuration up Penn that would hopefully be less disruptive than the options they evaluated before. Robbinsdale can't be allowed to force further disinvestment in North just because they won't accept any changes to their stroad. We were assured that the railroad was just being a tough negotiator for years, when in the end they really weren't willing to budge on their demands and a ton of time and money were wasted. We shouldn't make the same mistake and assume there's some acceptable concession we can make to Robbinsdale that will get this thing back on track.

thespeedmccool
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby thespeedmccool » September 13th, 2021, 11:22 pm

I mean, would it be the worst thing in the world for this to just end at North Memorial?

It would be a massive waste of money and time to elevate along 81, especially when appetite for LRT is pretty low (see growing discontent with how Southwest has played out.)

At this point, let's not burn political capital and actually capital on people who don't really want transit anyway. End it at North Memorial for now and they can get an extension when and if they agree to the alignment that actually makes sense.

Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Silophant » September 14th, 2021, 6:40 am

Depends on what the Robbinsdalers are actually mad about. If they're actually mad about the downtown Robbinsdale alignment specifically, then maybe ending at North Memorial works. If they're mad about losing car capacity to zoom towards downtown on Bottineau, the a North Memorial terminus still affects that, and it's still within Robbinsdale city limits, so they can still block it by withholding municipal consent.

The other concern would be getting the suburban County Commissioners to still agree to fund a line that just serves North Minneapolis, though with Opat gone maybe that wouldn't be quite as bad?

Mdcastle
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Mdcastle » September 14th, 2021, 7:36 am

Instead of everyone being angry at Robbinsdale has anyone asked them what they actually want? I'm assuming it will be something that will be solvable by building something or other rather than say completely unmeetable and unrealistic social justice demands. Could be they saw what a enormous disaster the Blue Line was to motorists on Hiawatha, could be concerns with crossing Bottineau, could be accessibility from the station to their downtown area.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby SurlyLHT » September 14th, 2021, 8:07 am

Just do a trackless tram. It wouldn't require as much space as LRT which is the main issue in North and the imaginary issue in Robbinsdale. (Be cool to the U of M test the driverless ones on the Transitway.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKIKKIWNg4E

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » September 14th, 2021, 9:14 am

Here's this morning's committee presentation:
https://metrocouncil.org/getdoc/68cf54f ... ation.aspx

Looks like the line will be elevated at North Memorial Hospital.

Considerations to build at diamond at Bottineau and Bass Lake Road. Bottineau would be elevated, but the train would not be.

Broadway to Lyndale and Lowry to Washington are the remaining Minneapolis route options. So we likely won't get a Broadway and North Loop route.

Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » September 14th, 2021, 9:20 am

Here's this morning's committee presentation:
https://metrocouncil.org/getdoc/68cf54f ... ation.aspx

Looks like the line will be elevated at North Memorial Hospital.

Considerations to build at diamond at Bottineau and Bass Lake Road. Bottineau would be elevated, but the train would not be.

Broadway to Lyndale and Lowry to Washington are the remaining Minneapolis route options. So we likely won't get a Broadway and North Loop route.
I'm not seeing in the powerpoint where they narrowed down the options in Minneapolis, can you point that out?

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » September 14th, 2021, 9:26 am

I was looking at 17/18, but slide 20 conflicts with that.

Bakken2016
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Bakken2016 » September 14th, 2021, 9:38 am

hmmm, I do like the elevated portion near North Memorial, definitely makes sense.

alexschief
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby alexschief » September 14th, 2021, 10:01 am

At North Memorial, Option #2 is superior because station egress through an un-upgraded parking structure should be avoided at all costs. I guess if the pathway through the parking structure were made into a pleasant hallway like the recent MOA redesign, that would be acceptable. But because the access is envisioned as going straight through the middle of the structure that doesn't seem feasible.
Last edited by alexschief on September 14th, 2021, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Trademark
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Trademark » September 14th, 2021, 10:27 am

I really hope they're not ruling out Broadway and North Loop

Tcmetro
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Tcmetro » September 14th, 2021, 10:36 am

Here's this morning's committee presentation:
https://metrocouncil.org/getdoc/68cf54f ... ation.aspx

Looks like the line will be elevated at North Memorial Hospital.

Considerations to build at diamond at Bottineau and Bass Lake Road. Bottineau would be elevated, but the train would not be.

Broadway to Lyndale and Lowry to Washington are the remaining Minneapolis route options. So we likely won't get a Broadway and North Loop route.
I'm not seeing in the powerpoint where they narrowed down the options in Minneapolis, can you point that out?
I listened to the meeting and it sounds like they are still reviewing the different route options despite the maps that don't show them.

Silophant
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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Postby Silophant » September 14th, 2021, 10:44 am

At North Memorial, Option #2 is superior because station egress through an un-upgraded parking structure should be avoided at all costs. I guess if the pathway through the parking structure were made into a pleasant hallway like the recent MOA redesign, that would be acceptable. But because the access is envisioned as going straight through the middle of the structure that doesn't seem feasible.
Looks like Option #2 also goes through the parking ramp, though I guess maybe it's at the end of the ramp and could more easily be converted to an enclosed hallway?


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