Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Tcmetro
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » March 11th, 2021, 7:15 am

New Blue Line routes for consideration. Surprisingly, Penn did not make a comeback. Everything under analysis now is either on Broadway or Lowry.

Orange/Lowry route: Lowry to Washington
Red route: Broadway to Washington
Navy route: Broadway to 94 to 7th
Yellow route: Broadway to Lyndale to Plymouth to Washington
Pink route: Broadway to Lyndale to 3rd/4th
Green route: Broadway to Lyndale to 7th

https://www.publiccoordinate.com/#/projects/BLRT/map

https://wanvmapinputapi.azurewebsites.n ... %20ADA.pdf

DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 11th, 2021, 8:46 am

Assuming all of these are only being considered for at-grade then that's quite disappointing, and apparently the Met Council's standards for considering a tunnel are only for an airport or appeasing wealthy people.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 11th, 2021, 9:30 am

Assuming all of these are only being considered for at-grade then that's quite disappointing, and apparently the Met Council's standards for considering a tunnel are only for an airport or appeasing wealthy people.
It could be quite possible that those decisions haven't been made yet, and these are just lines on a map. Cause I think for sure leaving TFS is gonna require some sort of bridge/viaduct for many of those Minneapolis routings.

uptownbro
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby uptownbro » March 11th, 2021, 9:44 am

All of them are much better then the original planned route and will better serve this part of the city.
Now if they come out with a tunnel for part of it thats just amazing all around

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 9:45 am

The one that curves onto Washington Avenue is amazing is great as long as it doesn't stop at lights the whole way.

Going up to Lowry is intriguing. But I think a separate line (maybe BRT) can cover a line farther up 94. Broadway needs to be the focus of Blue Line.

Everybody leave comments requesting tunnels this could be an amazing transit route.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 9:51 am

With their focus on right of way in the second link its making me think that Broadway and Lowry will probably be at-grade.

Silophant
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » March 11th, 2021, 10:17 am

The one that curves onto Washington Avenue is amazing is great as long as it doesn't stop at lights the whole way.

Going up to Lowry is intriguing. But I think a separate line (maybe BRT) can cover a line farther up 94. Broadway needs to be the focus of Blue Line.

Everybody leave comments requesting tunnels this could be an amazing transit route.
Yeah, my initial reaction is that it looks like the stars might be aligning for Minneapolis and/or the Buttigieg DOT to force MnDOT's 94/252 project to actually include good transit, but I'd be concerned that running LRT along it up to Lowry would remove any momentum towards a BRT line that would serve the areas north of Lowry and Brooklyn Center, which doesn't seem like a fantastic trade-off. Similarly, I'm not sold on the veering back to Washington Ave - it would be great to have a Northern North Loop station, but I don't think the extra minutes of crawling around tight corners and doubling back is worth it.

xandrex
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby xandrex » March 11th, 2021, 11:17 am

I do like the concept of the North Loop alignment, as it would be nice to improve access to the northern part of the neighborhood, but I assume you can't really do grade separation because of the creek. That would make the "red link" option too slow. The pink is intriguing, because it would really only need to worry about traffic at 10th (easy enough to give priority), would provide more access for northern North Loopers, and might get the city to take serious doing some grid repair/ped connections!

But it sure feels like, given what they're presenting, they want a Broadway alignment, and I assume the 7th/Lyndale alignment is easiest. No complaints with that option, either.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

The one that curves onto Washington Avenue is amazing is great as long as it doesn't stop at lights the whole way.

Going up to Lowry is intriguing. But I think a separate line (maybe BRT) can cover a line farther up 94. Broadway needs to be the focus of Blue Line.

Everybody leave comments requesting tunnels this could be an amazing transit route.
Yeah, my initial reaction is that it looks like the stars might be aligning for Minneapolis and/or the Buttigieg DOT to force MnDOT's 94/252 project to actually include good transit, but I'd be concerned that running LRT along it up to Lowry would remove any momentum towards a BRT line that would serve the areas north of Lowry and Brooklyn Center, which doesn't seem like a fantastic trade-off. Similarly, I'm not sold on the veering back to Washington Ave - it would be great to have a Northern North Loop station, but I don't think the extra minutes of crawling around tight corners and doubling back is worth it.
If the blue line uses 94 up to broadway maybe it would open up a LRT extension up 94 instead of BRT. Id love to see it going up to Camden. Grass tracks on victory memorial to Brooklyn Blvd to Brooklyn center. Would open up a southern extension possibility. Maybe something going to uptown or midtown.

I really don't see the point of going up 252. There's nothing there and not a ton of development potential as it's mostly built out. Feels like the hwy 55 or 169 study.

kellonathan
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby kellonathan » March 11th, 2021, 11:48 am

How I read it is, that the project team/consultants intentionally left the issue of "at-grade vs grade-separated" vague so these details can be ironed out as the project progresses further, hopefully with more public feedback.

I see the ROW availability map as justification for grade-separation, not as the presumption that it's going to be at-grade.
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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 11th, 2021, 12:00 pm

How I read it is, that the project team/consultants intentionally left the issue of "at-grade vs grade-separated" vague so these details can be ironed out as the project progresses further, hopefully with more public feedback.

I see the ROW availability map as justification for grade-separation, not as the presumption that it's going to be at-grade.
I hope so. I don't see at-grade working out on Lowry, and West Broadway would be pushing the limits.

tmart
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » March 11th, 2021, 12:29 pm

I haven't seen this longer document from the project page posted yet: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... 10310.aspx (It's a lot of the same info as the one-page PDF, but expanded.)

It's interesting how the red/pink routes are clearly trying to snake through the Metro Transit facility, two surface parking lots, and the 4th St highway ramp. I had the same thought myself awhile ago when looking at the area on satellite, and I think it's really promising. Especially since Target Field Station is already above grade, and any crossing of 6th St would probably also be above-grade, I wonder if they're considering an elevated alignment. That would allow serving the North Loop but with a relatively direct route, higher speeds, and fewer delays. (I do imagine the folks in the apartment building at 5th St/6th Ave would have some words to share about having an elevated line outside their window though! :lol:)

One idea I'd like added to the mix would be to go parallel to (or better yet, replace) the 4th St highway ramp--basically a hybrid of the Pink and Navy options on today's map. I think Lyndale is a reasonable alternative, too, but the 94 alignment would make it easier to add a station at the east end of W Broadway and leave more space for a turn onto Broadway or a potential tunnel portal. And if it removed the 94 ramps, that would be a huge and concrete win for the city and county environmental goals that call for VMT reductions. It could also be a transfer/terminus for any future 94/252 BRT projects.
I see the ROW availability map as justification for grade-separation, not as the presumption that it's going to be at-grade.
Yes, that's how I read it as well. The ROW map makes it very clear that there's no combination of alignments between TF and Robbinsdale that's completely, or even mostly, "green." It's exactly the map I'd make if I wanted to make the case that some amount of tunneling or traffic reduction (transit mall, etc.) was unavoidable. (Of course, it's also the map someone might make if they were trying to argue that it had to be a terrible mixed-traffic streetcar, but...let's hope that's not what this is.)

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » March 11th, 2021, 1:53 pm

My order of preference would be:

1. Green
2. Red
3. Pink
4. Blue
5. Yellow (Why is this even being discussed?)
6. Orange/Lowry

Would like to see the Broadway tunnel concept looked at really seriously, hard to tell right now if it's in the mix or not.

Trademark
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 2:05 pm

The only good thing about the Orange/Lowry alignment is it would give motivation for a future alignment to continue east to Northeast mpls and Central avenue.

Overall rankings

1. Pink/Blue. This would combine the north loop station and 94 alignments. Opening the door for light rail on 94 instead of BRT as well as probably an easier portal to begin tunneling.
2. Red
3. Pink
4. Blue
5. Green
6. Orange
7. Yellow (I'm confused if the yellow is heading north after hitting lyndale or Washington either way trash routing)

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 11th, 2021, 2:06 pm

My order of preference would be:

1. Green
2. Red
3. Pink
4. Blue
5. Yellow (Why is this even being discussed?)
6. Orange/Lowry

Would like to see the Broadway tunnel concept looked at really seriously, hard to tell right now if it's in the mix or not.
It seems they left it vague for the time being, which means they probably haven’t made a decision.


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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 11th, 2021, 2:10 pm

Regarding an I-94 alignment that could open the door for another light rail route along I-94, keep in mind the tracks in downtown are already at capacity. Another light rail line will require either grade-separation or another downtown alignment.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 11th, 2021, 2:19 pm

From the meeting, a map overview of the routes. They did say the red link would go at grade on 10th ave and washington ave.
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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » March 11th, 2021, 2:29 pm

Assuming a tunnel option is still on the table then my preference is the navy blue route since it looks like it would be the easiest for building a tunnel portal.
Last edited by DanPatchToget on March 11th, 2021, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 11th, 2021, 2:30 pm

Whoa, accused of sneaking this in while people are distracted by the trial.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » March 11th, 2021, 2:32 pm

Whoa, accused of sneaking this in while people are distracted by the trial.
Yea, I am just shaking my head. This is preliminary, they are acting like this is the routing.


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