Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 795
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 3rd, 2020, 1:27 pm

Since it's pretty much back to the drawing board, how about rerouting it to Maple Grove instead of a corporate campus in the middle of farm fields?

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 417
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » August 3rd, 2020, 1:28 pm

Since it's pretty much back to the drawing board, how about rerouting it to Maple Grove instead of a corporate campus in the middle of farm fields?
City of Brooklyn Park would never let that happen in my opinion, they were promised LRT they are still going to want it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3970
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » August 3rd, 2020, 2:22 pm

Now that this is presumably at the back of the line and 10+ years out again, what if we spent some of the money on track rights and upgrades and extended the (already BNSF-operated) Northstar out along this line to Osseo or so, with a couple midday runs instead of exclusively rush-hour? Or would the various powers that be insist that if the SW suburbs get a high-frequency train, the NW suburbs deserve no less?

Online
alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 658
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 3rd, 2020, 2:26 pm

The alternative to Broadway and Lyndale N, or at least part of it, would be to dig a short subway from Target Field perhaps to the end of the Broadway crescent when the street straightens out and heads almost due NW. You'd need a TBM to do this, and would have to excavate at least one station at Emerson and Fremont, and so I think it's difficult to justify.
I'd been largely dismissive of early discussions about a full subway through North Minneapolis, but I could envision a routing that would follow N 7th St at grade across I-94, and then enter a tunnel near Plymouth and re-emerge at the Broadway crescent, where the Broadway ROW relaxes. This would be a relatively short tunnel, and it could be done without requiring a subgrade station, which would escalate the costs.
That's a better idea. I only see one obvious full take: the MPS building, which would likely be where you'd put the Plymouth Avenue (and Emerson/Fremont D Line connection) Station. Your partial takes would even be helpfully limited if you put can put a big ventilation and emergency access shaft in the parking lot of North Commons Park.
Since it's pretty much back to the drawing board, how about rerouting it to Maple Grove instead of a corporate campus in the middle of farm fields?
The alignment will have to change, but I'm virtually certain that the corridor will not.

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 417
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » August 3rd, 2020, 2:34 pm

Now that this is presumably at the back of the line and 10+ years out again, what if we spent some of the money on track rights and upgrades and extended the (already BNSF-operated) Northstar out along this line to Osseo or so, with a couple midday runs instead of exclusively rush-hour? Or would the various powers that be insist that if the SW suburbs get a high-frequency train, the NW suburbs deserve no less?
I don't think it will push it out that far.

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1437
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » August 3rd, 2020, 2:35 pm

What about Lyndale to 21st, then a few takings to get the alignment back onto Broadway somewhere near Irving or Ilion?

DanPatchToget
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 795
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 3rd, 2020, 2:59 pm

Since it's pretty much back to the drawing board, how about rerouting it to Maple Grove instead of a corporate campus in the middle of farm fields?
City of Brooklyn Park would never let that happen in my opinion, they were promised LRT they are still going to want it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It could still serve Brooklyn Park while also serving Maple Grove. It would just turn west somewhere (likely Brooklyn Boulevard) instead of continuing north on Broadway.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2360
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » August 3rd, 2020, 3:21 pm

I'd been largely dismissive of early discussions about a full subway through North Minneapolis, but I could envision a routing that would follow N 7th St at grade across I-94, and then enter a tunnel near Plymouth and re-emerge at the Broadway crescent, where the Broadway ROW relaxes
I don't think that's true. The effective ROW west of Penn is something like 74', which is why the sidewalks there are are probably the worst of any section of Broadway.

snar
Block E
Posts: 4
Joined: May 6th, 2018, 5:11 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby snar » August 3rd, 2020, 3:26 pm

That's a better idea. I only see one obvious full take: the MPS building, which would likely be where you'd put the Plymouth Avenue (and Emerson/Fremont D Line connection) Station. Your partial takes would even be helpfully limited if you put can put a big ventilation and emergency access shaft in the parking lot of North Commons Park.
Couldn't you build the station in the lot north of Plymouth Ave (where the Liquor store is currently)?

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5762
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » August 3rd, 2020, 3:42 pm

I don't think that's true. The effective ROW west of Penn is something like 74', which is why the sidewalks there are are probably the worst of any section of Broadway.
You may well be right -- I just quickly eyeballed it based on the presence of the medians, but looking more closely, it looks like it may be tighter.

SurlyLHT
Foshay Tower
Posts: 884
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » August 3rd, 2020, 7:24 pm

Notably, you can't put it up Penn Ave to W. Broadway without having the potential of stopping LRT service if emergency vehicles are servicing a residence. I also don't see how a cost-benefit analysis would allow for a subway tunnel, unless you constructed it under a prexisting street so it can be constructed the same way the SLRT tunnel is.

They also have the grading of the alternatives.

Online
alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 658
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 4th, 2020, 7:29 am

I think everyone agrees that one end of this alignment through Minneapolis needs to be Bottineau Boulevard, and the other is obviously Target Field Station. The challenge is to do three things, (1) to get up, (2) to get over, and (3) to properly serve North Minneapolis in between.

Up: On Lyndale N, between Broadway and Plymouth, there is not a single point of vehicular egress for a property that does not also have others. The only access that needs to be preserved is at 14th Street, which is the only point of access for residents of Hall Curve and Harry Davis Lane. But they do not rely on Lyndale N itself for access, and that cross traffic could easily be governed with a boom if needed. Regardless, Lyndale is wide enough to have dedicated ROW for trains without stations, and also vehicle travel lanes if needed.

I don't see other north/south streets making anywhere near as much sense if your goal is to get a train to Broadway. It's either Lyndale or short tunnel.

Over: Broadway, while tight, it's clearly feasible. For folks who don't see that as the solution, it's hard for me to understand what alternatives might be proposed to get to Bottineau Boulevard, especially any that offer anywhere near the same benefits. Lowry is the same width (80') as Broadway. N 26th would need to be closed down entirely and may not have room for stations. Pick any other fringe route and you're replicating the mistake of the original alignment study, which chose what seemed to be the path of least resistance, even if it would've ended up serving almost nobody.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3970
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » August 4th, 2020, 8:59 am

Twin Cities Business Mag has a pretty in-depth article on this. Sounds like CM Ellison is on board to move it to Broadway, which is a good sign. It also discusses what we learned from SWLRT, that following a freight railroad isn't necessarily cheaper if you wind up building miles of crash walls and viaducts over wetlands.
But the portion between Robbinsdale and downtown Minneapolis is stickier and will inevitably fuel dissent. Leaving Monticello makes it harder to serve Golden Valley and Wirth Park. It also means the line serves downtown Robbinsdale peripherally rather than in the middle of its business district.
“The Golden Valley stop is important,” says Mayor Harris. “We have 16,000 more daytime residents than at night. We are a significant employment base: Allianz, Tennant, Courage Kenny, and Honeywell.”
A reroute off BNSF “is a big negative,” says Robbinsdale’s Murphy. “It would cut up our downtown.”

I have a couple concerns with how unfamiliar the Golden Valley and Robbinsdale mayors seem to be with their own cities' geography, since a Bottineau Blvd alignment through Robbinsdale would be a mirror image of the BNSF alignment, with respect to Broadway, and in Golden Valley, three of those four employment centers are miles from the Golden Valley Road station. Even Courage Kenny is a bit more than half a mile away.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4727
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » August 4th, 2020, 9:02 am

Penn is not a viable alternative due to the takings required. A good amount of W. Broadway is fronted by parking lots. Seems like we could do something with that.

The trickiest stretch of W. Broadway is probably Emerson to around Irving, where RIRO might be necessary. How critical are connections to the C line? It might be difficult to put stations right where the lines would cross, but a couple of blocks away is probably feasible.

Another option that was briefly looked at was split operation on Penn and Queen. It was rejected due to cost but we might have to get creative.

Anything done has to be in deep consultation with the community. Building SWLRT but not BLRT would be a really bad look.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


SurlyLHT
Foshay Tower
Posts: 884
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » August 4th, 2020, 9:12 am

Dowling might be a possibility, run it from Lyndale to 38th in Robbinsdale and have it do a short jaunt near the lake to Bottineau Blvd. A huge chunk of the road is bordered by a cemetery. I'm sure people in Robbinsdale would scream about it going Lake Terrace Park however. This would also be a nice place to place a station on 36th and Bottineau. Lowry actually scored alright on the alternative analysis. W. Broadway was clearly labeled as infeasible.

Online
alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 658
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 4th, 2020, 10:16 am

The problem with routes further north than Broadway is that you are compounding the "Up" issue even if you think you might be solving the "Over" issue. North of Broadway, for instance, using Lyndale N becomes much more difficult, because the character is residential, the same as any other local street.

Forgive me if I don't fully trust the original alternatives analysis, given the awfulness and ultimate in-feasibility of its conclusions. Broadway is challenging, but I think less challenging than practically any of the other alternatives. Moreover, I think a large portion of the challenges are political, not technical, and I hope that is changing.

User avatar
mister.shoes
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1293
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:22 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mister.shoes » August 4th, 2020, 10:36 am

The TCB article mentioned using Washington as the "Up" to Broadway's "Over" in place of Lyndale. I found that to be interesting from a geometry PoV, but don't know enough about the potential political optics of making such a choice. A station around the intersection of Washington and 10th and another near Broadway would serve the north end of the North Loop and the east side of the 94 trench nicely, but would they come across as bypassing Near North to the benefit of NL yuppies?

Now that I think about it more, though, with the C Line on Glenwood(hopefully)+Penn and the future D Line on 7th+Emerson/Freemont, sending Bottineau up Washington and then across on Broadway would make for a lovely network of interconnected lines.
The problem with being an introvert online is that no one knows you're just hanging out and listening.

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 417
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » August 4th, 2020, 10:37 am

But honestly, screw the suburban ridership. Build a line that serves transit dependent people. Karen with her car in Brooklyn Park will either drive or continue taking the express bus!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Online
alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 658
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » August 4th, 2020, 10:52 am

The TCB article mentioned using Washington as the "Up" to Broadway's "Over" in place of Lyndale. I found that to be interesting from a geometry PoV...
Yeah, I'd love to know what people are thinking, because I had a very hard time imagining how to get the train from Target Field Station to somewhere like Washington and 10th. The only possible solution involves a lot of slow street running, slow curves, and probably some elevated sections. The pinch point at Metro Transit's driveway between the new MTPD building and the Junction Flats seems difficult to manage. The entire enterprise seems incompatible (and hypocritical?) with the stated worry about travel times through North Minneapolis.

The article reveals in a way how transit priorities are shaped, even by people who claim they are focused on equity. Somehow connecting buses to peripheral train stations was thought to be an adequate solution for the residents of the Northside, but the North Loop, which already has lots of bus service and general proximity to Target Field Station, is presented as a transit desert. Somehow a two-seat ride with a bus component was thought to not deter Northside riders, but a couple of minutes of delay from street running in North Minneapolis is presented as a fatal issue for suburban commuters. It's the classic fallacy of splitting riders into "captive" and "choice" and then focusing obsessively on the latter.

Anyway, bringing transit through the North Loop seems best solved with buses, and we already know how to do it.

LakeCharles
Foshay Tower
Posts: 849
Joined: January 16th, 2014, 8:34 am
Location: Kingfield

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby LakeCharles » August 4th, 2020, 11:45 am

Since it's pretty much back to the drawing board, how about rerouting it to Maple Grove instead of a corporate campus in the middle of farm fields?
The huge advantage of the routing north on Broadway through Brooklyn Park is servicing North Hennepin Community College. It enrolls 10,000 unique students per year.

If you turned west on Brooklyn Boulevard though you'd also hopefully have a stop for Hennepin Technical, which while smaller would be still be nice.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests