Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 453
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » February 11th, 2021, 4:22 pm

What were the old alternative options for the line?
Maybe they are dusting off one of those.
They looked at Penn Ave/ Queen Ave's the most.

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... tives.aspx
The Scoping Decision document (linked from the one you posted) also has lots of details on why certain alignments through North were eliminated: https://metrocouncil.org/METC/files/db/ ... 1e2fa1.pdf

uptownbro
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 188
Joined: February 10th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby uptownbro » February 11th, 2021, 4:25 pm

Thank you!
Really most would be an improvement including D2 which I would assume is the "fall back" option and one that would actually serve north Minneapolis.

Mdcastle
Foshay Tower
Posts: 889
Joined: March 23rd, 2013, 8:28 am
Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Mdcastle » February 11th, 2021, 7:13 pm

The takeaway seems to be that using Broadway east of Penn was a no-go for a huge kaleidoscope of reasons, so then and probably now what's left is to figure out the best way to run it down Oliver, Penn, or Queen.

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1514
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » February 11th, 2021, 7:48 pm

My read on it is that they will explore an array of alignments in North Minneapolis. I would really like to see something go down Broadway. I think they could even get away with surface routing by using Lyndale and 21st if the financial capacity doesn't work for a tunnel. I think it is very likely that Penn-Olson becomes part of the discussion as well, but that corridor is much more residential.

Trademark
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 135
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » February 11th, 2021, 8:26 pm

My read on it is that they will explore an array of alignments in North Minneapolis. I would really like to see something go down Broadway. I think they could even get away with surface routing by using Lyndale and 21st if the financial capacity doesn't work for a tunnel. I think it is very likely that Penn-Olson becomes part of the discussion as well, but that corridor is much more residential.
The corridor as a whole is much more residential but the nodes at plymouth, Golden valley rd and Lowry are decent mixed use with potential for further growth going forward. But yes Broadway as a whole needs to be the frontrunner.

Trademark
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 135
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » February 11th, 2021, 8:41 pm

If this project goes onto Penn Avenue as a streetcar with no dedicated lanes. I will personally collect signatures to try and bring a stop to this and invite anyone interested in joining me. North Minneapolis deserves better transit and the way this project is being rushed feels like we'll end up with the easiest option instead of the best.

Penn Ave deserves it's own quality transit (perhaps future rail from Penn Ave station and 394 to Brooklyn center transit center) and west Broadway definitely deserves it's own quality transit.

Getting half assed solutions for both corridors while the southwest corridor is getting the 5 star treatment is unacceptable!

Bakken2016
Rice Park
Posts: 464
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:40 pm
Location: North Loop

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » February 11th, 2021, 8:45 pm

Based on the meetings I have attended, it seems they are seriously considering West Broadway! But make sure you attend meetings and make your voice known!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trademark
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 135
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » February 11th, 2021, 8:51 pm

That is great to hear! When is the next one? I wish they had a calendar on streets.mn with all urbanist relevant political meetings that could be attended. If we could get the streets.mn and urban.msp followers mobilized more effectively there is a lot of difference that could be made.

Online
Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 4066
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » February 11th, 2021, 9:14 pm

If this project goes onto Penn Avenue as a streetcar with no dedicated lanes. I will personally collect signatures to try and bring a stop to this and invite anyone interested in joining me. North Minneapolis deserves better transit and the way this project is being rushed feels like we'll end up with the easiest option instead of the best.

Penn Ave deserves it's own quality transit (perhaps future rail from Penn Ave station and 394 to Brooklyn center transit center) and west Broadway definitely deserves it's own quality transit.

Getting half assed solutions for both corridors while the southwest corridor is getting the 5 star treatment is unacceptable!
I'm pretty confident that that won't happen - unlike Riverview, which is going to be an independent line (aside from some interlining at the ends), this is an extension of the Blue Line, so it'll be using 300' trains, and any traffic-induced slowdowns would directly screw up timing on the rest of the Blue Line, and the Green Line in the downtown section.

alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 799
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 12th, 2021, 7:50 am

If this project goes onto Penn Avenue as a streetcar with no dedicated lanes. I will personally collect signatures to try and bring a stop to this and invite anyone interested in joining me. North Minneapolis deserves better transit and the way this project is being rushed feels like we'll end up with the easiest option instead of the best.

Penn Ave deserves it's own quality transit (perhaps future rail from Penn Ave station and 394 to Brooklyn center transit center) and west Broadway definitely deserves it's own quality transit.

Getting half assed solutions for both corridors while the southwest corridor is getting the 5 star treatment is unacceptable!
I'm pretty confident that that won't happen - unlike Riverview, which is going to be an independent line (aside from some interlining at the ends), this is an extension of the Blue Line, so it'll be using 300' trains, and any traffic-induced slowdowns would directly screw up timing on the rest of the Blue Line, and the Green Line in the downtown section.
I mean, the same is true for the Riverview project, but that's not stopping Ramsey County from moving forward with a dead letter.

I think the key difference on Bottineau is that the Met Council is driving this train, and they're far less likely to have their head in the sand. The main obstacle to something good will be if Hennepin County Public Works insists on maintaining more than one lane in each direction on Broadway. But even then, if there's a will to pay for it, maybe cut and cover and a street-redesign (with road diet, bike lanes, wider sidewalks, landscaping) on top might be on the table.

Anyway, should be less than a month before we see some initial concepts, so we'll know whether to be outraged soon.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2395
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » February 12th, 2021, 10:49 am

Still haven't seen a layout for putting dedicated guideway LRT on an 80' street that wouldn't be deeply awful for pedestrians, transit, or both.

SurlyLHT
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1010
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » February 12th, 2021, 11:04 am

An issue with Broadway is that it has gained enough development on the North and South sides of the street that it would be hard to expand the street on either side. This would have been way more possible if they chose Broadway to begin with. Before you could have expanded to the North between Girard and Bryant then switched to the South. But, Juxta has a major expansion and Walgreens is now up to the street on Lyndale. You also have the Davis Center.

Same thing with Penn Ave, they estimated they would have to expand Penn on the West side of the road, but now you have multifamily buildings on GVR and Penn and Estes and Thor and potentially Northpoints expansion on Penn and Plymouth.

A tunnel down W. Broadway would be surest bet, otherwise there is a chance they can expand Broadway by threading the needle.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5795
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » February 12th, 2021, 11:26 am

Still haven't seen a layout for putting dedicated guideway LRT on an 80' street that wouldn't be deeply awful for pedestrians, transit, or both.
The truth that everybody refuses to accept.

SurlyLHT
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1010
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » February 12th, 2021, 11:33 am

Still haven't seen a layout for putting dedicated guideway LRT on an 80' street that wouldn't be deeply awful for pedestrians, transit, or both.
The truth that everybody refuses to accept.
-1

alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 799
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 12th, 2021, 12:31 pm

Still haven't seen a layout for putting dedicated guideway LRT on an 80' street that wouldn't be deeply awful for pedestrians, transit, or both.
Are we just going to reprise the discussion from a couple months ago about Houston?

Is this ideal? No. Is it workable? Yes.

"Deeply awful" overstates the problem. Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a cost/benefit discussion about a cut and cover tunnel. I've become convinced in the past few months that the case for that kind of approach is stronger than I thought at first, especially if it leads to a redesign of the street above to be safer and to not act as a barrier in the community. But good design and a willingness to not treat fast car traffic as the most essential element of the road could solve this issue.

Can't we leave it at that?

Trademark
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 135
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 11:22 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Trademark » February 12th, 2021, 12:53 pm

Still haven't seen a layout for putting dedicated guideway LRT on an 80' street that wouldn't be deeply awful for pedestrians, transit, or both.
Are we just going to reprise the discussion from a couple months ago about Houston?

Is this ideal? No. Is it workable? Yes.

"Deeply awful" overstates the problem. Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a cost/benefit discussion about a cut and cover tunnel. I've become convinced in the past few months that the case for that kind of approach is stronger than I thought at first, especially if it leads to a redesign of the street above to be safer and to not act as a barrier in the community. But good design and a willingness to not treat fast car traffic as the most essential element of the road could solve this issue.

Can't we leave it at that?
Elevated is an option too. With supports in strategic locations the road could undergo a 4-3 conversion with parking in some spots

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2395
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » February 12th, 2021, 2:38 pm

Are we just going to reprise the discussion from a couple months ago about Houston?

Is this ideal? No. Is it workable? Yes.

"Deeply awful" overstates the problem. Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a cost/benefit discussion about a cut and cover tunnel. I've become convinced in the past few months that the case for that kind of approach is stronger than I thought at first, especially if it leads to a redesign of the street above to be safer and to not act as a barrier in the community. But good design and a willingness to not treat fast car traffic as the most essential element of the road could solve this issue.

Can't we leave it at that?
If your vision for Broadway is a street where left-turns are banned, all parking is eliminated, and pedestrians get to enjoy 6' sidewalks with 4' boulevards (too narrow for street trees in our climate), then sure, Main Street in Houston is a great example. But that doesn't sound like most people's vision for what the Northside's main street should look like.

alexschief
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 799
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » February 12th, 2021, 2:49 pm

Are we just going to reprise the discussion from a couple months ago about Houston?

Is this ideal? No. Is it workable? Yes.

"Deeply awful" overstates the problem. Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a cost/benefit discussion about a cut and cover tunnel. I've become convinced in the past few months that the case for that kind of approach is stronger than I thought at first, especially if it leads to a redesign of the street above to be safer and to not act as a barrier in the community. But good design and a willingness to not treat fast car traffic as the most essential element of the road could solve this issue.

Can't we leave it at that?
If your vision for Broadway is a street where left-turns are banned, all parking is eliminated, and pedestrians get to enjoy 6' sidewalks with 4' boulevards (too narrow for street trees in our climate), then sure, Main Street in Houston is a great example. But that doesn't sound like most people's vision for what the Northside's main street should look like.
That's not necessarily my vision for Broadway, but it would certainly be an improvement over the status quo. It seems like useful place to start, to see if there is a possibility of fitting everything together at grade. Then the city, county, and community can decide if that's acceptable, or if an alternative (like cutting a tunnel down Broadway) is worth the trouble and the cost.

It may well be! I've been persuaded that there's a convincing argument for a tunnel to avoid creating a barrier between the upper and lower northside, that the added expense is justified to make up for past disinvestment, and that the new road design on top will provide further mobility and safety benefits (beyond, of course, the transit advantages).

But ruling out an at-grade option from the start makes no sense to me. The project shouldn't negotiate against itself, especially by assuming that private vehicle capacity is inviolate. If you're going to spend north of a billion on something, the success of that thing should be the foremost priority.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7709
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » February 12th, 2021, 4:03 pm

Reminder: A tunnel from where the 7th Stroad (easy median ROW) ends near Plymouth Avenue to where the Bottineau Stroad (easy median ROW) starts near the city limits is about the same distance as the tunnel built for the Blue Line under MSP airport. There are also significant areas that could be cut-and-covered such as between Knox Ave and North High, through North Commons park, and along the un-re-developed blocks of Broadway Crescent.

Online
Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 4066
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » February 12th, 2021, 11:14 pm

Once you've already brought in a TBM, does it really save money to cut-and-cover portions in the middle vs just letting it do its thing?


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests