Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 22nd, 2021, 6:21 pm

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.
Per Capita Income of the cities on this line (I don't think it'll pass through Golden Valley):

Minneapolis - $22,685
Crystal - $23,163
Brooklyn Park - $23,199
Robbinsdale - $23,912

This is very different than the Green line extension through Wayzata ($64k), Minnetonka($40k) & Eden Prairie ($39k).
The Green Line Extension isn't going through Wayzata.

LakeCharles
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby LakeCharles » January 22nd, 2021, 7:37 pm

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.
Per Capita Income of the cities on this line (I don't think it'll pass through Golden Valley):

Minneapolis - $22,685
Crystal - $23,163
Brooklyn Park - $23,199
Robbinsdale - $23,912

This is very different than the Green line extension through Wayzata ($64k), Minnetonka($40k) & Eden Prairie ($39k).
The Green Line Extension isn't going through Wayzata.
Ha! You're correct. Not sure what I was thinking. But it doesn't change the point at all.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 22nd, 2021, 9:30 pm

Where did you get those numbers by the way? I've been looking around but haven't found numbers that match yours.

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Tiller
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tiller » January 23rd, 2021, 7:11 am

Well SWLRT does touch Edina, which is one of the wealthiest (if not *the* wealthiest) suburbs. All the suburbs served by BLRT are fairly diverse and poorer. Sounds like an important investment equity-wise.

LakeCharles
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby LakeCharles » January 23rd, 2021, 3:16 pm

Where did you get those numbers by the way? I've been looking around but haven't found numbers that match yours.
Figures from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ita_income
Scroll down a bit past the counties to get the cities

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 9:42 am

A) You're not going to be able to put this through North, unless you tear down a bunch of homes on Penn Ave almost like you would for a freeway and W. Broadway isn't going to work, despite the wishful thinking of Leaders who don't want to admit their failures. See the except from the Alternatives analysis from the past and also putting the LRT down W. Broadway will slow it down and hurt the equation for the time it takes to reach the 'burbs.
B) Quotes like those below indicate the impetus for building this line:

“We see this line as critical to gaining investment that we need,” says Jay Strobel, city manager for Brooklyn Park, which has 1,200 acres to be developed near the line’s north end at Target’s campus, which currently is home to six buildings with more than a million square feet of office space.
“Most of our planning,” Strobel says, “counts on LRT as a development spark [on the north end], while on the south end we expect a lot of job creation.” He believes the campus employed as many as 4,000 people prior to the pandemic."

“The Golden Valley stop is important,” says Mayor Harris. “We have 16,000 more daytime residents than at night. We are a significant employment base: Allianz, Tennant, Courage Kenny, and Honeywell.”"

https://tcbmag.com/is-there-a-way-to-ge ... -on-track/
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Bakken2016
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Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » January 25th, 2021, 9:48 am

A) You're not going to be able to put this through North, unless you tear down a bunch of homes on Penn Ave almost like you would for a freeway and W. Broadway isn't going to work, despite the wishful thinking of Leaders who don't want to admit their failures. See the except from the Alternatives analysis from the past and also putting the LRT down W. Broadway will slow it down and hurt the equation for the time it takes to reach the 'burbs.
B) Quotes like those below indicate the impetus for building this line:

“We see this line as critical to gaining investment that we need,” says Jay Strobel, city manager for Brooklyn Park, which has 1,200 acres to be developed near the line’s north end at Target’s campus, which currently is home to six buildings with more than a million square feet of office space.
“Most of our planning,” Strobel says, “counts on LRT as a development spark [on the north end], while on the south end we expect a lot of job creation.” He believes the campus employed as many as 4,000 people prior to the pandemic."

“The Golden Valley stop is important,” says Mayor Harris. “We have 16,000 more daytime residents than at night. We are a significant employment base: Allianz, Tennant, Courage Kenny, and Honeywell.”"

https://tcbmag.com/is-there-a-way-to-ge ... -on-track/
Except we are not working with the same equation anymore, that has changed since this project original LPA was decided. There is tremendous support for this project to serve North Minneapolis and not bypass it, and I’m sure we will find a way to do that with the least amount of tearing things down.

Golden Valley will have to suck it up, the two stations originally planned were awful locations anyway....


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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 25th, 2021, 10:55 am

Allianz is nowhere near the original proposed stops in Golden Valley, and any local bus connection between the station and Allianz would take too much time. Tennant and Honeywell are closer and it would be more feasible to have local bus connections to/from the station, but Courage Kenny is the only employer that has a suitable location to directly benefit from the Golden Valley Road Station.

Also this topic is for another thread, but I'll just mention those three other employers are next to a lightly used freight rail line that could be an excellent candidate for regional rail service. Just saying.

As for North Minneapolis, already mentioned is the huge support of rerouting the Blue Line Extension through there. If there's still serious concern about community impacts then they should be willing to at least study a tunnel option.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » January 25th, 2021, 11:41 am

Frankly, the old AA documents and the rationale for the old LPA aren't just irrelevant, they're records of why they made the wrong choice at that time. They ruled out as too expensive and slow options that might have been buildable and would have served more people, in the name of a supposedly cheaper and easier route to connect some suburban office parks with downtown. The fact that we're revisiting the whole discussion all these years later is evidence that those decisions were wrong-headed.

That doesn't mean they should ignore the data collected in that process, of course. but the funding formulas of that era are also largely gone now, and were fairly arbitrary in what they did and didn't value. Hennepin County has much more freedom in decisions about funding this line now than they did then, and with any luck, they'll use that greater freedom to make more useful choices.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 25th, 2021, 1:17 pm

Let's remember that the Central Corridor project was changed extremely late in the process to add stations (increasing end-to-end travel time) in lower income areas. Let's remember that this was made possible by a New Starts formula change that was made explicitly because of that project.

The old logic of "suburban commuters can't waste a minute getting downtown, but Northsiders will be fine taking a bus to the train" is plainly racially and economically biased, and it doesn't apply any more. The politics have changed both locally and nationally, in this case for the better. Minnesota has a very powerful senator on the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, and if USDOT tried to put the screws in this project for routing through the Northside, then Secretary Buttigeig will hear about it as fast as a stapler can fly.

Don't let funding formula nonsense dissuade Minneapolis from getting a better transit project.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 1:36 pm

If you had a LRT station at Penn Ave and W. Broadway, what would get Downtown more quickly, the C Line or the LRT? I'm willing to bet the BRT. Popeyes on W. Broadway is only 2 miles from the IDS tower, with the close proximity to Downtown any time savings is little or non-existent. The main benefit to North would be any potential TOD. But, given that Ellison ran on gentrification and the whole UHT project has been enveloped into the prevention of gentrification. I see disruption of W. Broadway through construction and the prospect of gentrification killing this.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 25th, 2021, 1:53 pm

There are more destinations that Northsiders might want to go to than just downtown. The downtown-focused framing is a product of the original LPA's focus on suburban commuters, not Northsiders. The original LPA didn't care a great deal about the travel needs of Northsiders, besides assuming that they were so transit dependent that they would accept a poor quality of transit service that suburbanites would not.

On a different note, denying services to lower income areas because they might gentrify if they got something nice is the absolute wrong way to think about planning a city. That's how you get concentrated, multi-generational poverty and segregation.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 25th, 2021, 1:58 pm

Fears of gentrification didn't stop us from building the Green Line on University, so I don't see why it should be a different standard for the Blue Line Extension.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 2:04 pm

If anyone wants this actually built, they will go dig into the UHT and see what's going on there. I'm just stating observations and attitudes of the community. Streets.MN has a recent story about biking which talks about bike lanes and fears of gentrification.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » January 25th, 2021, 2:06 pm

Gentrification is a real issue for the north side just as it is for Frogtown. These are largely single family home neighborhoods and landlords/homeowners are going to cash out by raising the rent or selling to someone that wants to live near light rail.

The LRT and local bus/BRT have similar travel times to downtown. There's not really any traffic congestion on the bus routes, and the BRT upgrades will make boarding faster and skip some of the stops. Light rail isn't going improve service that much for north siders going downtown.

The benefit of the LRT going through North Minneapolis is to connect north side residents to the suburbs better. The LRT line will stop at 85th Ave which is where North Hennepin Community College is. There's an industrial park around 93rd Ave, and probably in the future at Oak Grove. There's a big retail node at Brooklyn Boulevard that will have bus connections to Maple Grove and Hennepin Technical College. There's some small retail nodes at Bass Lake Road and Robbinsdale.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 25th, 2021, 2:15 pm

Gentrification is a real issue for the north side just as it is for Frogtown. These are largely single family home neighborhoods and landlords/homeowners are going to cash out by raising the rent or selling to someone that wants to live near light rail.

The LRT and local bus/BRT have similar travel times to downtown. There's not really any traffic congestion on the bus routes, and the BRT upgrades will make boarding faster and skip some of the stops. Light rail isn't going improve service that much for north siders going downtown.

The benefit of the LRT going through North Minneapolis is to connect north side residents to the suburbs better. The LRT line will stop at 85th Ave which is where North Hennepin Community College is. There's an industrial park around 93rd Ave, and probably in the future at Oak Grove. There's a big retail node at Brooklyn Boulevard that will have bus connections to Maple Grove and Hennepin Technical College. There's some small retail nodes at Bass Lake Road and Robbinsdale.
Let's not forget the southern half of the Blue Line: Mall of America, the airport, VA Center, etc. Just because it might not significantly improve travel between the Northside and downtown doesn't mean it won't improve travel between the Northside and several areas of the region.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tcmetro » January 25th, 2021, 2:46 pm

That's true. The transfer penalty is a good 5-15 minutes between the north side and the light rail because of the walk between 5th and 7th-8th.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 25th, 2021, 2:59 pm

This is a can of worms, but we should be really clear about some things.

1. I repeat myself, but starving an area of high-quality services because you are afraid that creating those services will lead to gentrification is completely the wrong policy. The right approach is to ensure that high-quality services are abundant, so that there is less of a price premium to access them. For better or worse, that's already happened, since North Minneapolis will one of the last areas of the city to get LRT or BRT service. To the extent that scholars have studied the effects of making investments in low-income neighborhoods, they have overwhelmingly found that displacement becomes less frequent, because nothing is more destabilizing than poverty.

2. That being said, there is not really a substantial indication that light rail is some kind of irresistible force of gentrification. The low-incomes areas through which the Blue and Green Lines pass still are disinvested in to this day. To the extend that redevelopment has and will change these areas, it takes a long time. Decisions about the locations of transit lines should be made based on where there is transit demand today, and not to jumpstart or to avoid some hypothetical real estate play. A train is a train, not a magic wand that can reverse centuries of disinvestment and segregation. Routing this train through the heart of the northside would provide meaningful accessibility gains to Northsiders to areas both NW and SE of downtown Minneapolis, which cannot be otherwise achieved by bus.

3. The demographic fact is that North Minneapolis (and the northern suburbs) has gotten poorer and less white in the twenty-first century. By any definition of gentrification, it is not occurring in North Minneapolis. My own research has found that an average of 157 new units of housing have been proposed per year in Wards 4 and 5 combined over the past ten years. That's equal to just over 4% of the development in the entire city, for wards that have 15% of the city's population. The overwhelming problem in the Northside is underinvestment and disinvestment, not predation by rapacious developers. To the extend that redevelopment is occurring in this area, it's homegrown.

I expect that, if the new LPA is routed through North Minneapolis and along Broadway, there will be efforts to ensure that the city or community gets a say in new development, in order to ensure that it leaves space for current residents. That's fine, and not an issue to gloss over. We have the tools to make sure the community benefits not just from the amenity itself, but from any ancillary benefits that the amenity might bring with it. But the notion that these concerns justify light rail avoiding this area entirely is completely wrongheaded. Repeating myself again, but that's how you get concentrated, multi-generational poverty and segregation. The only difference is that by making it about "gentrification" you put a weird left-leaning sheen on a deeply exclusionary and reactionary policy.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » January 25th, 2021, 3:04 pm

On a different note, denying services to lower income areas because they might gentrify if they got something nice is the absolute wrong way to think about planning a city. That's how you get concentrated, multi-generational poverty and segregation.
Yes, precisely. Disinvestment is not an acceptable tool for preventing gentrification. We should provide the best possible transit for Northsiders, and separately from those decisions, take measures to mitigate displacement.

Just brainstorming what some of those measures could be--and I'm sure some of these are better ideas than others:

- Zoning for lots of new, walkable, urban mixed-use and housing near the suburban stations to ensure that (re)development isn't all concentrated in North

- Pairing the opening with upzoning wealthier neighborhoods, or ideally with another LRT project through wealthier neighborhoods

- One-off rent control for any renters who lived within 1/2 mile of a station when it opened

- Strengthening tenant protections (automatic lease renewals, making evictions more difficult, etc.)

- Subsidies for existing local-owned businesses during construction and for some years afterward

etc etc etc

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 26th, 2021, 12:56 pm

You all don't get it. Once word gets out that this will require tearing down homes or businesses it will be seen as an intrusion by outsiders and bring back memories of 94. Policy talk and city planning best practices, wouldn't change this view. I'm sure people were told the same things when 94 was put through. Why should Northsiders believe any experts who have pre-conceived notions of what's best for others? The idea that somehow the effects of this won't be severe on the Northside and that a few better transit connections will make it worth it is wishful thinking. Especially, if they end up deciding Olson Memorial-> Penn --> W. Broadway given that the C Line already runs on this and that stretch of Penn is already seeing TOD and has character via some very nice homes lining the road. (This is probably the most likely route)


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