MSP to Rochester High Speed Rail

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby Silophant » June 4th, 2014, 9:57 pm

I didn't read that as implying that they'd share a bridge, just that they would each need one, as you said. I read the need for coordination as just meaning that MnDOT, Ramsey County, and, presumably, the Met Council need to work together to make sure the Riverview line is up and running before Zip Rail gets completed, since it's a pretty vital connection.
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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby Minneboy » June 4th, 2014, 10:34 pm

I don't think that having 1 extra stop would be bad. I'm being biased a bit but one in Zumbrota about half way would be ideal and it would catch a lot of commuters from the east and west.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby FISHMANPET » June 4th, 2014, 10:45 pm

I think it should be routed through the towns along the way in such a way that the same tracks could be used for a slower local service. No idea if anybody that's not a train nerd like us would find that useful though.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mulad » June 5th, 2014, 6:39 am

The towns aren't all that big -- Pine Island and Zumbrota are 3,000-ish, Cannon Falls around 4,000, Byron 5,000, Dodge Center just over 2,000. They are relatively compact -- better than some suburbs that were old 6x6-mile townships that incorporated, but each has sprawling newer developments. You can combine Kasson and Mantorville to get 7,200 (and maybe add Byron and Dodge Center to get close to 14,000), and Northfield is around 20,000 (though nobody is planning to go directly there), so I guess that makes me continue to favor the western route a bit. Add a stop in Kasson or Dodge Center, and another in Randolph or Cannon Falls to grab as many Northfielders as possible (probably with a shuttle bus running between Northfield and Cannon Falls), and I'd be more than happy.

It's not good to add too many stops on a fast line, since trains take a long time to get up to speed -- particularly diesels like they're planning to start with. Probably 2 to 3 minutes to get up to 79 mph, and another 2 or 3 to get up to 110. You lose a few minutes of end-to-end running time for each intermediate stop, partly because of the slow acceleration/deceleration, and then there's also boarding time. We're probably talking 2 to 5 minutes each stop overall versus skipping straight past. How many riders do you gain by stopping versus how many do you lose by making it slower?

The Acela Express goes about 90 miles from NYC to Philadelphia in 1h12 to 1h20, with 2 or 3 intermediate stops, just for comparison, and I think it tops out at around 130 mph on that stretch.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby Andrew_F » July 16th, 2014, 6:36 am

A note on http://goziprail.org/stay_informed/ from 1/29/2014 states: "A second round of public meetings are planned for Spring 2014."

Has anyone heard anything on this?
Meeting dates are now up on the Zip Rail site for the end of the month in Rochester, Inver Grove Heights, and Kenyon.

The scoping booklet it's out too now, but at first glance there's nothing too exciting in it. Still, now's the chance to submit public comments.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mulad » July 16th, 2014, 1:07 pm

May as well post the dates. The IGH location is half a mile off the end of Metro Transit routes 68 and 71.

Tuesday, July 29, 2014
5 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Rochester Community and Technical College, Heintz Center Commons Area
1926 College View Road East, Rochester

Wednesday, July 30, 2014
5 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Inver Grove Community Center, Community Room 2
8055 Barbara Ave, Inver Grove Heights

Thursday, July 31, 2014
5 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Kenyon-Wanamingo High School, Commons Area and Auditorium
400 6th Street, Kenyon

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » July 16th, 2014, 1:26 pm

Would it be more beneficial to have pro-transit people (e.g., me) at IGH vs. Rochester? I'm definitely going to attend at least one meeting, but I'm trying to decide where my efforts would be most beneficial. I do realize this is still pretty early in the process.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 1:29 pm

I've attended a couple of these. My take would be that attending in the MSP metro would be most beneficial. Most of the push is coming from the Rochester end of the line (since they clearly have more to gain from this link).

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby kellonathan » July 16th, 2014, 2:00 pm

I am quite surprised to see that Northfield is almost completely out of the conversation. If Northfield can't move forward with the forgotten Dan Patch line, maybe they could utilize this as a promising alternative.
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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 2:09 pm

I don't think Northfield would merit a stop on this line, given that it's further west and the line will likely not stop between SPUD and Roch. The line may go through/near Stanton, between Northfield and Cannon Falls, though.

I'd rather see a DMU regional service on the UP Spine Line. Now that the FRA has revised buff strength requirements, I think DMUs will become much more feasible for these types of services. This could serve Mpls > SPUD > Rosemount > Northfield > Faribault > Owatonna > Albert Lea (with future extension to Mason City, Ames, and Des Moines).

There could eventually be another service connecting La Crosse > Winona > St. Charles > Rochester > Owatonna > Waseca > Mankato > New Ulm, with a timed transfer at Owatonna.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby kellonathan » July 16th, 2014, 2:30 pm

I'd rather see a DMU regional service on the UP Spine Line. Now that the FRA has revised buff strength requirements, I think DMUs will become much more feasible for these types of services. This could serve Mpls > SPUD > Rosemount > Northfield > Faribault > Owatonna > Albert Lea (with future extension to Mason City, Ames, and Des Moines).
Agreed. But, shhhhh.... you're not even allowed to discuss about it. #gagorder
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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » July 16th, 2014, 2:31 pm

I agree that Northfield would be nice to have be train accessible (disclosure: Ole alum here), but I don't think it really needs true high speed rail with its location being 1. off the direct path to Roch and 2. close enough to make driving decently attractive for many people.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » July 30th, 2014, 7:25 am


mattaudio
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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » July 30th, 2014, 7:34 am

I'll be attending as well, leaving South Minneapolis at 5 PM if anyone wants a ride. The problem is that this is at the same time as the Minnehaha Park parking meeting.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » July 30th, 2014, 7:37 am

If people have questions or comments they want raised, feel free to post here and I'll see what I can do.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby Ottergoose » July 30th, 2014, 10:11 am

I'd rather see a DMU regional service on the UP Spine Line. Now that the FRA has revised buff strength requirements, I think DMUs will become much more feasible for these types of services. This could serve Mpls > SPUD > Rosemount > Northfield > Faribault > Owatonna > Albert Lea (with future extension to Mason City, Ames, and Des Moines).
Agreed. But, shhhhh.... you're not even allowed to discuss about it. #gagorder
Your proposed route via SPUD and Rosemount is along Union Pacific's busy and extremely congested line; as it is now, it'd seem unlikely that the railroad would want more traffic there (given the trouble Northstar's been having on BNSF, avoiding UP would be a good idea).

The Dan Patch Corridor, which is covered by the gag order, is a different line via a Canadian Pacific / Progressive Rail / Twin Cites & Western owned route. Portions of the line either see a single train per day in each direction, or is out of service (Lakeville to Savage). If you look at a railroad map (http://railfanatlas.com), it's the north-south line through Edina / SLP / Savage / Burnsville / Lakeville / Northfield.

It will be very interesting to see how this (Rochester Line) plays out; AFAIK, there's never been a direct route between Rochester and the Twin Cities, even when there was an over-abundance of freight trackage in Southern MN. Even if you restored the old freight RoW, the best you could do would be St. Paul - Rosemount - Kenyon - [ Dodge Center or Zumbrota ] - Rochester. I'm not sure the last time anyone here has been to Kenyon, Dodge Center, or Zumbrota, but, they're not exactly high density urban areas.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » July 30th, 2014, 10:23 am

That's fine though, since the train wouldn't stop at any of those towns. If it were to use the old CGW path, it would bow out around Stanton/Kenyon/West Concord

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby FISHMANPET » July 30th, 2014, 10:31 am

My mom's actually selling her house in Zumbrota, I lived there when I was in Elementary school. I can't speak for all the towns along 52, but Cannon Falls, Zumbrota, and Pine Island at least have some semblance of an old style downtown, and could benefit from a regional connector between Rochester and the Twin Cities. But I don't think those cities have any rail ROW that could be used to get into the core, so your left following 52 and just brushing the side of the town.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby exiled_antipodean » July 30th, 2014, 1:35 pm

While I would personally benefit from a quick way to get to Rochester on the train and love trains, the discussion of this train seems to have leaped ahead of some basic questions.

Is it the best way to spend billions of dollars to improve mobility in the region? It seems to come out of a different pot of money than metro light rail projects, but what if they have more benefit?

Are slower stopping services that hit suburban/ex-urban locations as well as Rochester better from a land-use perspective. Using DMUs, how fast could one go Minneapolis-Edina-Bloomington-Lakeville-Northfield-Faribault-Owatonna-Rochester? It's 90 minutes drive from Minneapolis without traffic to Rochester. If the train was close to that it could be competitive with driving, but also anchor development in those towns/suburbs.

But if it's a fast train to Rochester on new lines, I'd still take it.

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Re: Zip Rail to Rochester

Postby FISHMANPET » July 30th, 2014, 1:46 pm

I'd bet with 110+ service you could compete pretty well with a driving time, even with stops. And there seem to be a fair number of towns that you could link up in a line between the two that could be served by a Regional type service, though that's not what the study is about. I'd hope that the tracks are built in such a way that there could be easy spurs into these towns, so that it wouldn't take much to add more trains to the tracks to provide more local service.


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