Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 1st, 2018, 10:27 am

That’s like saying Oslo built a Metro Line that terminates at a Narvessen (basically a Norwegian Kwik Trip). I only bring that up because I’m in Oslo right now.

Looking at Matt’s route again, isn’t it a bit of a walk from the actual Downtown Lakeville?

mattaudio
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby mattaudio » August 2nd, 2018, 9:13 am

Holyoke Ave between 202 and 210 Street is the main street of downtown Lakeville.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby DanPatchToget » August 2nd, 2018, 4:08 pm

I'm going to blame the Google Maps app because when I click your link on my phone it shows a straight shot on Cedar and County Road 50 completely missing Downtown Lakeville, but on my laptop it shows the route going through downtown.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby Oreos&Milk » August 3rd, 2018, 10:17 am

Getting a bit off topic as this is pertains more to the Red line than the Orange. There is zero reason why Lakeville couldn't get serious about connectivity and turn 205th into a bike trail instead of a roadway. From at least Holyoke Ave to Cedar. However that might be unnecessary anyways as 210th is already lined with a nice bike trail. Downtown Lakeville does not have the density needed to route the bus down Holyoke instead the area is barely walkable but could easily be bikeable. Plus a bus station on Cedar gives Lakeville the opportunity to created new density with new development. Sadly they continue to build low density down that corridor so they are learning nothing and until they get serious and start demanding increased density development I'd say "No bus for you!"

Lakeville is building a good basic system of biking trails and a station down Cedar can still be just as good as in the downtown lakeville area, if not better. If (I doubt it in my lifetime) transit usage increases there is no reason why Northfield Lines could be merged/complementary to the red line. Northfield riders could have access to an air lake station for those industrial jobs or continue onward to the mall / airport or into downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul.

Transit lines need to be straight and direct to ensure speed in maintained. As this corridor only has value if it extends further than just down to lakeville. People who choose to live in Farmington do so knowing they are outside of the transit friendly bubble. Even those who choose to live in Lakeville do so knowing they are on the edge where it's barely (not really worth the investment over other corridors) realistic for them to be included. It's so silly to be talking about connecting people who actively want to live out in the middle of nowhere and are perfectly content with driving a car everywhere. You can't change their mindset, but you can help connect some communities when they happen to fall near a "transit highway" Nothing stopping Farmington to come up with a shuttle idea. Just saying.

Giving people who live in places like Northfield where rent is much cheaper than the cities an option to have dependable transit to places like lakeville or apple valley for good paying jobs would be a win in my book! Giving dependable transit to people in lakeville in oversized homes near the downtown area, I don't understand how anybody would argue that as a better use of funds. That's just my opinion though.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » August 3rd, 2018, 11:43 am

Getting a bit off topic as this is pertains more to the Red line than the Orange. There is zero reason why Lakeville couldn't get serious about connectivity and turn 205th into a bike trail instead of a roadway. From at least Holyoke Ave to Cedar. However that might be unnecessary anyways as 210th is already lined with a nice bike trail. Downtown Lakeville does not have the density needed to route the bus down Holyoke instead the area is barely walkable but could easily be bikeable. Plus a bus station on Cedar gives Lakeville the opportunity to created new density with new development. Sadly they continue to build low density down that corridor so they are learning nothing and until they get serious and start demanding increased density development I'd say "No bus for you!"

Lakeville is building a good basic system of biking trails and a station down Cedar can still be just as good as in the downtown lakeville area, if not better. If (I doubt it in my lifetime) transit usage increases there is no reason why Northfield Lines could be merged/complementary to the red line. Northfield riders could have access to an air lake station for those industrial jobs or continue onward to the mall / airport or into downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul.

Transit lines need to be straight and direct to ensure speed in maintained. As this corridor only has value if it extends further than just down to lakeville. People who choose to live in Farmington do so knowing they are outside of the transit friendly bubble. Even those who choose to live in Lakeville do so knowing they are on the edge where it's barely (not really worth the investment over other corridors) realistic for them to be included. It's so silly to be talking about connecting people who actively want to live out in the middle of nowhere and are perfectly content with driving a car everywhere. You can't change their mindset, but you can help connect some communities when they happen to fall near a "transit highway" Nothing stopping Farmington to come up with a shuttle idea. Just saying.

Giving people who live in places like Northfield where rent is much cheaper than the cities an option to have dependable transit to places like lakeville or apple valley for good paying jobs would be a win in my book! Giving dependable transit to people in lakeville in oversized homes near the downtown area, I don't understand how anybody would argue that as a better use of funds. That's just my opinion though.
I believe the Lake Marion Greenway will connect the downtowns of Lakeville and Farmington. I know the Milwaukee Road had a line between the two towns until the late 70s or early 80s, not sure if any right-of-way is still left that can be used as a rail-trail, but that's possibly another option for a trail.

As I've said already, we need to stop looking at a southern extension of the Red Line until if/when Lakeville realizes they need diverse housing and transit friendly uses next to potential transit routes. Going north on 77, 62, and I-35W needs to be higher priority, especially when the Orange Line is in operation.

What makes you think everyone who lives in Lakeville and Farmington chooses to so they can be out of the way from transit? I still live in my parents' house in West Bloomington because I don't have the money for my own place yet. There is very little transit, but I wish there was. Just because residents of a community may all seem transit hostile doesn't mean they all are. Seems by your logic everyone who wants transit should move at least into the inner ring suburbs and everyone else live in the second ring suburbs and exurbs, which obviously isn't going to happen.

As for going to Northfield, Lakeville needs to take the hard to swallow pill that is regional rail can work in the Twin Cities and the Dan Patch Line is the place to do it. No amount of buses will win more people over than rail especially in places where transit isn't the norm. Plus the Dan Patch Line is a straight shot from Northfield to Lakeville.

Red Line extends north before extending south, Orange Line will probably extend as far south as I-35 & Kenwood Trail, and Dan Patch serves Northfield and Downtown Lakeville. It really can be that simple if politics weren't involved.

Qhaberl
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Qhaberl » January 18th, 2019, 9:19 am

I have been taking the redline to see a client in Apple Valley every Friday. I’m curious if anyone on the form has any information about the station areas surrounding 140th, 147th, and Apple Valley transit center?

The land-use surrounding the stations seems very poorly planned out. The majority of them are surrounded by massive parking lots and retail establishments. From what I have noticed, I would say that Apple Valley is continuing to grow, but why isn’t there much transit oriented development happening around the stations?

Do people on the forum think that it is a zoning problem in Apple Valley?

Has the market not demand it new housing in these areas?

Are the residence of Apple Valley that opposed to density, that these empty parking lots in retail stores will be there forever?




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QuietBlue
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » January 18th, 2019, 11:28 am

I grew up a few miles from that area, on the north side of Lakeville. A lot of that growth happened well before they were ever thinking about transit. I don't know when exactly bus service to the area started -- I was using it in the late 90's, when they were still using the old station just south of the current AVTS, so sometime before then. There actually is a lot of multifamily housing in the area (by suburban standards), but it's mostly not on the main streets. There are some pretty new buildings off of Galaxie and Foliage too, further east.

The main reason for the excessive amount of parking is that, when the area was built out, there was much less retail and entertainment further out in the suburban fringe, so a lot of people would drive there from longer distances away than they probably do now. We did a lot of grocery shopping at the AV Rainbow in the 80's, and then the Cub when that was built in the early 90's, for example. And the old Kmart (where Burlington is now) was THE place to go for a lot of stuff before the Target Greatland (remember those?) was built. But yeah, now there isn't as much need for all that parking. I think that's why Cub sold off part of their parking lot land for the restaurants that were built off of 153rd.

I think there will eventually be more density in the area as time goes on. I'm sure developers have their eyes on that parcel of land on the NW corner of 140th and Cedar, for example. Plus there will likely be redevelopment of some of the existing retail spaces.

Qhaberl
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Qhaberl » January 18th, 2019, 11:38 am

I hope the development kicks off. I feel that the redline is much more friendly for riders Now that the Cedargrove station is built. Makes the ride from Apple Valley to the mall the Marica much shorter.

It’s probably too early, but does anyone have any ridership statistics since the new Cedar Grove transit center opened? I take it on Fridays during the rush-hour, And again during the mid morning period, and the ridership is not spectacular, but there are always people on the bus.


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Bakken2016
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Bakken2016 » September 30th, 2020, 12:55 pm

It looks like Metropolitan Council has terminated the Red Line operations contract with MVTA and switching it over to Metro Transit according to MVTA Board Meeting packet for the September meeting.

https://www.mvta.com/about/meetings-mat ... g-packets/

thisisdeception
Block E
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby thisisdeception » October 1st, 2020, 1:15 pm

It looks like Metropolitan Council has terminated the Red Line operations contract with MVTA and switching it over to Metro Transit according to MVTA Board Meeting packet for the September meeting.

https://www.mvta.com/about/meetings-mat ... g-packets/
"MVTA and Metro Transit have very different service models for operations, performance, facilities maintenance, security, and responsiveness. MVTA has a 95% Customer Satisfaction Rating, and we provide a clean, efficient, and safe Red Line customer experience that mirrors are award-winning suburban services."

Well then.

Korh
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Korh » October 1st, 2020, 3:06 pm

Wait is MVTA saying they want to take over the Red Line completely or have Metro Transit run it by themselves cause it seems like they might be saying both.
If its the former I wonder if they would try and extend the Red Line into downtown since one of the main reasons why Metro Transit didn't was something along the lines of "bUT we ALReaDY hAvE THe bLue linE".

Tcmetro
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » October 1st, 2020, 5:37 pm

The service isn't going to change. Met Council contracts the operations to MVTA, and is looking for some operational efficiencies and cost savings by having Metro Transit operate it. MT is able to operate it now because the Covid service cuts have reduced the driver shortage problem.

Silophant
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Silophant » October 1st, 2020, 9:50 pm

It's funny that part of the argument for keeping the service is "Our drivers know the route and the stops". I'm fairly confident that Metro Transit's drivers will be able to pick up "Drive straight down the highway, stop at the enormous overbuilt bus stations" pretty easily.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby DanPatchToget » October 6th, 2020, 6:15 pm

https://www.startribune.com/metro-trans ... 572656212/

Hopefully they'll replace the Nova buses with Gillig or New Flyer for fleet commonality. I'll also reiterate my stance that they should extend the Red Line north to Minneapolis.

twincitizen
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby twincitizen » October 8th, 2020, 12:35 pm

Nah, let’s extend the C line down Cedar and reclaim the “Red Line” designation for either Riverview or Midtown. With Ramsey County looking to call the Rush Line “Purple” (it should be Silver IMO), we’re basically gonna be out of colors, unless we’re gonna go Chicago style and do Pink & Brown. Yellow is out since we’re doing Gold, too similar

Trademark
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Trademark » October 8th, 2020, 1:54 pm

Nah, let’s extend the C line down Cedar and reclaim the “Red Line” designation for either Riverview or Midtown. With Ramsey County looking to call the Rush Line “Purple” (it should be Silver IMO), we’re basically gonna be out of colors, unless we’re gonna go Chicago style and do Pink & Brown. Yellow is out since we’re doing Gold, too similar
It seems that the motivation for doing this is more focused on preserving colors versus providing quality transit. As shown in LA names can be changed if we have the good problem of too many corridors.

Combining high speed highway BRT with low speed Arterial BRT would sacrifice travel time with limited benefit for people who would take the Red Line.

Yes the C line should be considered to be extended down Cedar but it can do that on its own with a possible connection to the Red Line on Cedar and 66th. While still serving people seeking faster transit then what is currently available to service south of the MN river.

Taking all of the Red Line trips down Cedar in Minneapolis would subject people to the same problems of lack of speed that they would run into on the Blue Line.

Silophant
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Silophant » October 8th, 2020, 2:48 pm

How about extending it to Minneapolis via 62/35W, then changing the color to Silver using the perfectly reasonable rationale of having Red and Orange interlining for half the route makes the map confusing for color deficient people (like me!)

Trademark
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Trademark » October 8th, 2020, 2:52 pm

How about extending it to Minneapolis via 62/35W, then changing the color to Silver using the perfectly reasonable rationale of having Red and Orange interlining for half the route makes the map confusing for color deficient people (like me!)
I like the idea someone proposed awhile back of running it down 66th street to Portland avenue. With the roundabouts there it wouldn't be that much slower than running on 62 in traffic and correct me if I'm wrong but without the ability to run it on the shoulder. The plus side would be connecting it to the shopping center by richfield parkway as well as the D line and apartment buildings near 66th street.

Trademark
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Trademark » October 8th, 2020, 2:54 pm

How about extending it to Minneapolis via 62/35W, then changing the color to Silver using the perfectly reasonable rationale of having Red and Orange interlining for half the route makes the map confusing for color deficient people (like me!)
You do bring up a great point about confusion for color deficient people though

EOst
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Re: Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby EOst » October 10th, 2020, 8:49 am

The shades of orange and red they chose also look terrible right next to each other, for what it's worth.


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