The Venue at Dinkytown - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE)

[gobezlij]

I'm not sure who you are debating, mattaudio, as I don't see any advocacy here for prohibiting the House of Hanson owners to sell their building and land, and to stop new owners from building upon that land. I certainly wasn't arguing that. The critiques of the Opus development that I have read are reacting to the size and layout of the building being proposed, and how it relates to and will change Dinkytown as a place.

As you have often pointed out, new development pushes lower rent spaces elsewhere. As this plays out in Dinkytown, it is likely that the mix of businesses will change from more independent to more chain. Neighborhoods change over time, as they must to remain strong. That doesn't mean that we (or rather developers, with active input from neighborhood stakeholders) can't be thoughtful about how new development is integrated into the fabric of a neighborhood. It isn't an easy process, and it shouldn't be.

My lament is the loss of these longstanding independent businesses (whether they move or close up shop) that I equate with Dinkytown. I would much prefer infill in the parking lots to the block-long mixed-use building being proposed. But I don't work for Opus, sit on the planning commission, nor live in the neighborhood, so it really isn't up to me.

That said, if someone plans to redevelop the building that Shuang Cheng is in, I might have to stand in front of that bulldozer!

[lordmoke]

Whole lotta info:
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 104320.pdf

EDIT: The street level massing on this is actually pretty nice. Broken up well, with some interesting outdoor patio spaces!

[go4guy]

Awesome design. 14th and 5th corner ties in perfectly with the character of Dinkytown. Great setback after the 2nd level. Not sure how the neighborhood could complain....but they will.

[beykite]

So this is called 5th Street Flats? I like it. Its a great design, I think it fits in nicely. I'm sure they'll still be mad about the "scale" and what not but I think it looks great. And thats all that matters right??

[Silophant]

Yep. As much as the "community" is still going to hate it, it really seems like Opus took a lot of their concerns into account.

[Nathan]

I think this is a great example of a developer paying attention to the neighborhood and being considerate of it's impact, unlike it's neighbor to the north

The other thing I really like is that they have gone so far as to show, in the renderings, where the expansion joints will be in the brick, and they have also used the 'detail' of the expansion joint and carried it across into areas where there isn't brick. Now that is something I haven't seen such consideration taken on before.

[Didier]

Can somebody post a screen grab of the renderings in here? I'm on my phone and can't open the PDF.

[gobezlij]

Here are two of the renderings:

Screen Shot 2013-02-15 at 5.43.56 PM.png

Screen Shot 2013-02-15 at 5.51.39 PM.png

[RailBaronYarr]

I really, really like this. I don't think the housing will be any cheaper than surrounding areas but I really think this is an improvement to the street experience (it's better than HoH and 1,753x better than the surface lots). Any of the businesses could easily re-locate within here, it provides more space for more shops/restaurants for the area, and still manages to replace 42 of the roughly 120 parking spots currently serving all those businesses.. I still think it's too bad that they have so much underground parking for residents as it will only encourage them to HAVE cars which they will then use, but that's fine, I guess. Seriously, big upgrade and way better than the UTEC site proposal, IMO.

[mplser]

Can somebody post a screen grab of the renderings in here? I'm on my phone and can't open the PDF.

your phone can't open pdfs? what century are you living in? haha (I'm just kidding. smartphones definitely have their disadvantages, too)

[editcostarica]

That was a pleasant surprise!

[stock345]

This project looks great. Hopefully the neighborhood association and current dwellers ok dinky town don't take this project out.

[Didier]

your phone can't open pdfs? what century are you living in? haha (I'm just kidding. smartphones definitely have their disadvantages, too)

Maybe it can, but sometimes these PDFs are huge and annoying to open even on a computer. Thanks for posting.

I was in Dinkytown briefly last night and took a closer look. Those pictures definitely show a building that could be a lot worse. It does make a big difference to set back the upper stories, and having more of a "face" on 5th Street will make Dinkytown overall bigger.

A few general notes.
• Even with the surface parking lot, this space isn't as dead to the street as it is sometimes portrayed. The full wall of retail will definitely be an improvement, but the former Blockbuster and its parking lot and the McDonald's parking lot are without doubt the two spaces in Dinkytown that could most use redevelopment, in my opinion. I'd say this HoH space is right in the middle of this discussion. The rest of Dinkytown is either surface parking lots that few would oppose redevelopment or else older storefronts that would cause a major uproar.

• I'm hopeful that some of the stores lost in this redevelopment are able to still find a home in Dinkytown. The music store, for example. I'm not terribly optimistic, though.

• For better or worse, I think this development and the UTEC across the street are really going to kick start Dinkytown's "growing up" into a more modern urban center. Dinkytown will become a denser, more sophisticated area, and with this more modern retail space will come a Noodles, Chipotle, Walgreens, Panera, etc. I don't think that's inherently a bad thing as long as those places don't replace the random independent and ethnic places entirely. Stadium Village is kind of like this now, but I don't think that's by design, is it? I just figured developers were starting with the south side of Washington.

• Parking is going to be a bigger and bigger issue in Dinkytown. It's already pretty tight to find parking there, and with hundreds of new housing units it won't get any better. Ideally local students wouldn't need a car, but Dinkytown needs to accommodate people who are coming from other areas to go to the Varsity Theater, etc. If they would find some way to replace the surface lots in the middle of this block (behind the buildings) with a small ramp that would be ideal.

[RailBaronYarr]

Well they replace the 120 spots with 42 in the arcade. Not too bad. The UTEC site will lose more. I'm not in disagreement that the area still needs parking for visitors/shoppers/etc. But how much? Where else can parking exist in the area? Most of University and 4th have no on-street parking. Road diet, convert them back to bi-directional, add street parking on both sides. Price it dynamically and remove the time limit so those that are willing to stay longer can, but will certainly pay for it.

These places are already fighting the parking minimum for the residences and still building a below-ground space for them. It would be nice if, over time, this below-ground level could shift from resident parking to visitor parking (at market rate) - reducing rents in the apartment and providing options for visitors.

Longer-term still it would be great if 90% of the people in Dinkytown on any day/time arrived by foot, transit, or bike. This is a pipe dream given Gopher sporting events and the Varsity Theater, but every other establishment should have no excuse to need vast amounts of parking to sustain themselves.

Finally, I too hope that the businesses displaced (Duffy's Pizza, the hair salon, HoH, etc) can find a place in the new retail environment. Purple Onion managed to do it, no reason most/all couldn't if they wanted to stay (they could also paying higher rents given a much higher population base in the area to feed business).

[Nick]

Serious question: Has anyone ever been to Duffy's before? I've been to Mesa probably ~1,000 times and still go to Burrito Loco somewhat regularly even as a graduate, and I've never even been in Duffy's.

Also, I just walked down Lyndale to take a picture of the crane at Lime. And I did notice that two of the Greenleaf commercial spots and I think all of the Murals retail space is filled--all with local, non-chain businesses. Obviously national retail has a leg up over local business, but I'm sure there's a way to make it work...I can't help but think that a lot of these small businesses we worry about putting out of business are already really marginal to begin with, often in some very rundown, low-rent spaces. As a pedestrian and otherwise urban-ey person, I like seeing lots of different storefronts and quirky shops. But at what cost to future potential businesses? Why should a funky tea shop (or whatever) that clears forty dollars a day in sales be protected from having their rent go up? I think a lot of times we're idolizing something that doesn't necessarily "exist" in a real business sense.

[Silophant]

I went to Duffy's a couple weeks ago, actually. I was walking down that street and I figured I'd better try it at least once before it disappeared. However, I walked in and found that the only pizza type they appeared to have ready was cheese, so I turned around and went to Mesa instead.

[RailBaronYarr]

Well keep in mind that not everyone's goal in life is to open a restaurant and have it be under continuous growth planning. SOme people want to run a restaurant, not become a CEO of a chain store. Mesa took the Ian's pizza idea from Madison (didn't the owner work there?) and done a good job expanding from Dinkytown to Uptown and even Iowa City. But not everyone wants that, and not everyone wants to eat there.

To answer your question, clearly enough people eat at Duffy's to keep them afloat (and I've eaten there 3x whilst living in Dinkytown for 3.5 years). Something 70% of restaurants can't say they can do (and it's particularly impressive given how efficient, tasty, and trendy Mesa is that they could survive). I'm not saying they should be protected with artificially low rents due to vast surface parking surrounding them. But for every Duffy's where people question it, there's a Campus Pizza that is a one-off, somewhat quirky place that would be a real shame to see leave and have a Noodles take its place simply because they can afford the rent.

Part of the problem is our zoning, permitting, etc making giant projects like this only possible if room rents and retail lease prices are high enough to justify the costs (including parking, yes), and the profit levels the big firms desire. Furthermore, we don't even know what these smaller places are clearing per day.

You ask why should the funky tea shop (or otherwise) be allowed to stay? Well, local businesses use local services. Like attorneys, tax people, etc etc. They are proven to invest more in the local economy than big box stores or chain restaurants. There's a start. Furthermore, people complain about "Everywhereville, USA" - suburbs that all look the same everywhere you go. Well, this type of "big-box" urbanism brings the exact same chains of shops and restaurants with no authenticity to it. Dinkytown may as well be Uptown, Frogtown, Madison, or some chic neighborhood in Chicago. That's a less tangible reason but one I would stick to. Even if you've never been to Duffy's or that hair salon before, would you rather there be a Great Clips and Papa John's there instead?...

[Nick]

Oh yeah, and I'm certainly not arguing against small business. I just see a lot of knee jerk reaction for small business and I hope people think it all through before opposing this or any development on the basis of wanting to keep local retail out of principle. (EDIT: I'll add that particular local retail) I don't know how feasible it is for every small business person in the city to work towards being profitable enough to survive their landlord being bought out by Opus/Doran/Ryan and have rent increase. But at the same time, I see a whole lot of internet commenters claiming to be small business owners, and then they spell it "buisness", and so...yeah. Partially joking there

I mean just a couple blocks over in Sydney Hall, the guy behind Chilly Billy's got out in front of Yogurt Lab and as far as I know he's doing pretty well there. It's not impossible.

[alleycat]

The Duffy's own the two Victorian structures that sit next to each other behind the pizza shop. I was a tenant in the one next to Duffy's. I'm pretty certain they subsidized the pizza business with the four flats and a studio that are in those two buildings.

[RailBaronYarr]

The Duffy's own the two Victorian structures that sit next to each other behind the pizza shop. I was a tenant in the one next to Duffy's. I'm pretty certain they subsidized the pizza business with the four flats and a studio that are in those two buildings.

Even if that is true, is that a problem? They chose to maximize the utility of 2 adjacent properties owned while providing housing, cheap unique pizza dining, and a hair salon. One could easily make the case that the new buildings going up are subsidizing the parking and retail space with the numerous bedrooms (of which will cost more than the flats/studio in the victorian houses).