The Venue at Dinkytown - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE)

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Nick » June 9th, 2013, 10:07 am

Right?
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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby FISHMANPET » June 9th, 2013, 10:28 am

I think Save Dinkytown would be wise to force Opus into keeping rents at existing levels in their retail spaces for returning businesses and capped rent increases. Even if they lose money on that space, they'll make up for it with everything else, and they'll get tons of goodwill from the community.

Also why do so many people think Al's was ever at stake? Was that Strib editorial that effective at spreading lies?

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Snelbian » June 9th, 2013, 10:53 am

The Al's line has been around since this all started, and Save Dinkytown hasn't done much, if anything, to quash it. If nothing else it's an indication of how diseased Dinkytown is at the moment. People hear something is changing in Dinkytown and the only place they can remember visiting there is Al's.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Suburban Outcast » June 9th, 2013, 12:53 pm

Also why do so many people think Al's was ever at stake? Was that Strib editorial that effective at spreading lies?
Yeah I did keep hearing about Al's. I think it might be due to just to confusion since it is on the same block but the NIMBYs might be using that confusion to their advantage because that will get people's attention if Al's is mentioned.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 9th, 2013, 1:40 pm

Let's say this development along with increasing demand for housing actually tips to the point where it would be financially lucrative to buy some of those buildings in Dinkytown and do something more with the space (Annie's, Loring, etc). What if the facades of the 2-3 story buildings people deem have character could be kept in place and the developer build up on the interior of the block in exchange for no parking minimums? This would keep the look and feel while adding vertical housing set back from the street. For many of the spaces people care about, the entire building isn't what people are fighting over, it's a) the business itself (quirky/unique) and b) the historic nature of the street front. I would say the whole building of Loring and Varsity Theater would be worth fighting for, but other than that?...

And I don't know how reasonable it is to not only set up a(n?) historic district AND enact rent control. I'm all for not favoring big boxes or chains with tax breaks/etc, but I'm also not in favor of enacting rent control just to favor small businesses that may or may not go out on their own (how many places in Dinkytown today have been there for more than 15 years?)

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Didier » June 9th, 2013, 11:01 pm

But it is sort of unfortunate that frankly, other than that, it is rather hard to make an argument for most of the one story buildings on the north side of Fourth Street. I mean what's the architectural significance of the building with US Bank in it? Then you start to get in the weeds pretty quickly with things like "character", etc...
That's a valid point for sure, but the big distinction is that the buildings that currently make up Dinkytown are generally small and have different characteristics from each other. Any redevelopment would almost certainly be a large-scale project, based on all recent evidence.

I'm not suggesting this is a reason to bar any redevelopment in Dinkytown, but it would definitely change the feel of the area to have five (or so) storefronts in one large building as opposed to the current five (or so) storyfronts in five random buildings.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby FISHMANPET » June 9th, 2013, 11:33 pm

If we didn't have parking minimums we could do that same kind of small scale development. Just put a parking overlay district on those 4 blocks and require 0 parking and let developers go nuts. You'll see this shitty 1 story buildings replace with 2 or 3 story buildings in the same footprint in a flash.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Snelbian » June 10th, 2013, 6:59 am

If we didn't have parking minimums we could do that same kind of small scale development. Just put a parking overlay district on those 4 blocks and require 0 parking and let developers go nuts. You'll see this shitty 1 story buildings replace with 2 or 3 story buildings in the same footprint in a flash.
You'd be able to hear the outraged screams of alumni from orbit.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 10th, 2013, 7:38 am

^ Again, it would take a really special kind of nostalgia to care about the buildings housing US Bank, Mesa, the Hot Spot (is that still there?), Magus Book & Herbs, and even the Post Office. 0 parking minimums and allowing party walls (no side setbacks) would do the trick, I think.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby Snelbian » June 10th, 2013, 7:53 am

But where would they park? A block away from their destination? Two? Won't somebody think of the children, etc. etc. The current uproar isn't only about Book House and The Podium. There are plenty of complaints that parking will be reduced (which it won't, but whatever) and somehow nobody will be able to get to Dinkytown anymore, especially on game days. Even the suggestion from the city that developers would be able to offer less parking than they've been required to in the past would face some pretty big opposition from the older and more far-flung visitors.

All that said, I agree that it's a great idea.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby MNdible » June 10th, 2013, 9:42 am

0 parking minimums and allowing party walls (no side setbacks) would do the trick, I think.
From a development rights point of view, I'm sure that all of these businesses have grandfathered parking rights, and party wall construction is allowed for commercial buildings.

In other topics, you're totally market driven (i.e., tear down SFH to build apartments), but when the market says that it needs more parking than the code requires, you call BS.

I'm not arguing that we should save surface parking lots. But Dinkytown did develop a shared parking program that used that little piece of land like crazy. In many ways, it should be a model for other business nodes to reduce the amount of land dedicated to parking.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby FISHMANPET » June 10th, 2013, 9:52 am

I don't think there are parking minimums for commercial in Dinktytown, but there are for residential. I think we would see a lot of 2 or 3 story buildings with a couple of apartments on top if they weren't required to provide one parking space per unit (or is it .6 per unit?)

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby MNdible » June 10th, 2013, 10:20 am

ADA requirements make small multi-story apartment buildings a hard sell.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby mulad » June 10th, 2013, 10:20 am

I'm not arguing that we should save surface parking lots. But Dinkytown did develop a shared parking program that used that little piece of land like crazy. In many ways, it should be a model for other business nodes to reduce the amount of land dedicated to parking.
It's okay, I guess, but there are still 5 or 6 distinct parking lots on that small block


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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 10th, 2013, 11:06 am

0 parking minimums and allowing party walls (no side setbacks) would do the trick, I think.
From a development rights point of view, I'm sure that all of these businesses have grandfathered parking rights, and party wall construction is allowed for commercial buildings.

In other topics, you're totally market driven (i.e., tear down SFH to build apartments), but when the market says that it needs more parking than the code requires, you call BS.

I'm not arguing that we should save surface parking lots. But Dinkytown did develop a shared parking program that used that little piece of land like crazy. In many ways, it should be a model for other business nodes to reduce the amount of land dedicated to parking.
I wasn't talking about the current uses. Reducing parking minimums and allowing continued use of a party wall system for a mixed-use zoning targeted at 2-3 stories would allow smaller infill to go crazy. Yes, the current structures have grandfathered parking rights. Future development wouldn't, particularly with housing above (if that's what they wanted). I didn't call BS on the existing parking that's there. I think it's a catch-22 on the current businesses claiming they need the existing parking given the fact that there's not enough population to support their business without it. The Opus and UTEC site developments drastically change that, and building another 1-2 stories up above would only help that. Furthermore, keep in mind that on-street parking is under-priced in the core and priced at zero 1 block away. Also keep in mind even a taller building would still allow space in the back for businesses to provide their own parking if they chose. I'm not naive enough to think if we reduced parking minimums that private businesses and developers would provide 0, just far fewer.

As for the shared parking district, I agree that's a great idea. And hopefully the Opus development uses those at-grade parking stalls in a similar way, charging market rates but allowing businesses to choose to validate if they think it's worth it for their bottom line. But obviously the land has a higher value for development than parking. I would also argue that the giant lot on the UTEC site was mostly empty, and even on Friday and Saturday nights was maybe 1/2 full (when Varsity, etc would 'need' it for their events plus the influx of bar hoppers).

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 10th, 2013, 11:09 am

ADA requirements make small multi-story apartment buildings a hard sell.
Don't ADA requirements for elevators/etc only apply for a building taller than 2 stories or more than 3,000 sqft per floor? I would imagine that a building 20-30 ft wide and 80-100 ft deep would be exempt, or am I missing something?

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby MNdible » June 10th, 2013, 12:18 pm

Don't ADA requirements for elevators/etc only apply for a building taller than 2 stories or more than 3,000 sqft per floor? I would imagine that a building 20-30 ft wide and 80-100 ft deep would be exempt, or am I missing something?
This is generally correct. There are other reasons why buildings with less than 3,000 sf floor plates are problematic, though.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 10th, 2013, 12:47 pm

^ Agreed. I'm certain that the fixed costs associated with a smaller building reduce the opportunity from a development perspective. But isn't that exactly what smaller businesses with less overhead and lower profit expectations, aka small/local businesses, would be interested in building and operating? Like a person who really enjoys running a restaurant or random book and herbs business but could use some extra on the side to help keep revenue streams up during the summer months or whatever. I'd love to be a developer/real estate guru to have a very solid understanding of these costs, but I don't.. I'd be curious to know how much a 30'x90', 3 story building with commercial ground floor and 2 floors with 4 apartments each, a few surface parking spots in the back, and no elevators would cost and if a small RE company would be interested. Thoughts?

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby MNdible » June 10th, 2013, 1:11 pm

Without delving into the costs and speculating as to who might be interested in developing these buildings, or asking why small business owners would be less interested in profit than large business owners, I do have one quick thought:

Your apartments as proposed are likely to be configured as 15'x40', assuming you can figure out a way to provide the required means of access and egress in a super-efficient way. They will only have windows on one 15' wide face, and half of the units are facing the alley. Daylight and views will be at a premium.

I merely point this out to underline the difficulty of putting desirable residential into a partywall condition, and to show why it's important to pay attention to property line setbacks.

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Re: Opus Dinkytown Project - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE

Postby twincitizen » June 10th, 2013, 6:34 pm

Does anyone else want to commit to attending the Planning Commission meeting Monday June 24 to speak in favor of this development? If you've posted in this thread, you should definitely show up. The Planning Commission and City Council need to know that there is some support for this. If we don't show up, the SaveDinkytown folks will be the only voices in the room. People generally don't show up for things they are in favor of, so the conversation is easily dominated by the opposition (who think they have something to "lose").


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