The Venue at Dinkytown - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE)

[RailBaronYarr]

I'll do my best to be there. I've got a bunch of house projects I'm trying to nail out in the 4 weeks between classes, so if I can't I will be emailing the commission my support.

MNdible,
I was just looking for some estimates. I didn't say small businesses would be less interested in profit, but have lower profit expectations (aka the profit is basically part of their salary rather than paying shareholders and other developments). I meant to say 4 apartments total, my bad. Even in that configuration (2 30x40 units per floor with windows on one side), yes, daylight would be at a premium. But even a brand new building like the Elysian has 2 bedrooms without windows link (I presume they get away with this by having sprinklers). But again, these challenges and limited return are why the big developers wouldn't be interested but smaller business owners and developers might be. And we're straying a bit from the Opus property anyway, I have a bad tendency to do that, sorry.

[FISHMANPET]

Meetings are at 4:30, and I'm going to try and be there.

[PhilmerPhil]

I put it on my calendar and will try to make it. Happy hour afterwards might also be a good idea.

[go4guy]

Already planning on it. Not sure I am the prime candidate since I am not the most vocal person out there, but I will show my support and try to speak up.

[Didier]

I think it's a catch-22 on the current businesses claiming they need the existing parking given the fact that there's not enough population to support their business without it. The Opus and UTEC site developments drastically change that, and building another 1-2 stories up above would only help that.

You also have to keep in mind that the Varsity Theater, Loring Pasta Bar and others will never rely primarily on Dinkytown residents. Of course there will always be plenty of parking in the area for football games etc., but nobody can say with certainty how people will react with different parking conditions.

I'm not at all advocating for keeping parking, especially surface parking, but just pointing out that this explanation is very simplistic. The Varsity Theater's interests are obviously much different than Burrito Loco's interests, so it's misleading to lump them together in a discussion like this.

[RailBaronYarr]

Maybe Nick can move some of these to the general Dinkytown discussion. I agree with you on the differing needs between a Varsity Theater and Burrito Loco. One has peak demand of a lot of cars (event nights drawing maybe 100+ guests from the metro), the other a slow trickle of customers with a slight peak on weekend bar scene. That said, I think it's a bit much to complain about lack of parking in the area when there's a giant parking ramp 2.5 blocks from the Varsity (and the Nolte Garage, and the Northrop garage, etc) designed to handle peak U commuter parking demand but largely open on weekends and evenings. In addition to that is 90%+ of street parking in Dinkytown being completely free (which allows residents to park there rather than it being used as an option for business patrons).

IMO, saying that we don't know how patrons of Loring or Varsity will react if they're forced to pay a little extra for on-street parking or walk an extra block or two isn't the city's problem.

[Snelbian]

I think it's a catch-22 on the current businesses claiming they need the existing parking given the fact that there's not enough population to support their business without it. The Opus and UTEC site developments drastically change that, and building another 1-2 stories up above would only help that.

You also have to keep in mind that the Varsity Theater, Loring Pasta Bar and others will never rely primarily on Dinkytown residents. Of course there will always be plenty of parking in the area for football games etc., but nobody can say with certainty how people will react with different parking conditions.

I'm not at all advocating for keeping parking, especially surface parking, but just pointing out that this explanation is very simplistic. The Varsity Theater's interests are obviously much different than Burrito Loco's interests, so it's misleading to lump them together in a discussion like this.

I suppose this raises the question of whether the interests of, say, Varsity Theater are inline with those of Dinkytown residents. I love the Varsity, but I live something like 10 miles away. Perhaps it's not so terrible if Dinkytown's businesses are reconfigured to fit the needs of a growing number of people living there. The Podium, for instance, while undoubtedly a fantastic shop, was in the middle of a predominantly undergraduate population, both in terms of residents and foot traffic outside. Yet I've never known a student that would be able to afford more than a guitar pick at that place.

[Didier]

I have to imagine there are far more moderate solutions than kicking the Varsity Theater out of Dinkytown, if that's what the suggestion is.

My last post wasn't intended to disagree with Rail Barron, since I generally agree with what he said, but rather to offer an alternate view in a thread that is becoming an echo chamber.

[RailBaronYarr]

I don't think I was advocating kicking Varsity out. In fact, that seems like one of the examples of a business who very much benefits by being near a large, young crowd. For example, last night they had Rachael Yamagata put on a show. Smaller/up and coming/niche artists or shows are cheaper to attend and may have a stronger fan base in young people (plus, even if only 1% of students are interested, that's 300 undergraads). Yes, the Varsity does other events, and even the shows will still need to draw people from outside the area. My take is that I'm not sure how a 2.5 block walk from a covered garage and the city shifting its street parking policies (which would actually help businesses by freeing up space from residents parking for free) would be an unquestionable bad thing for the local shops.

[Didier]

No, it was Snelbian's post that seemed to imply that Dinkytown might be better off without the Varsity mucking things up. I don't know if that's what he meant or not, but it's such an absurd idea, frankly, that it's not even worth talking about beyond this post.

My point before was just that you painted Dinkytown businesses with a broad brush, implying that more residential in the core of the neighborhood essentially negates the loss of parking, but it's obviously much more nuanced than that on several levels. Not all Dinkytown businesses rely primarily on local residents, and there is no way to 100 percent predict people's behavior when the parking situation changes, so your point is basically conjecture.

Personally I agree that I don't think it will be an issue, but if you want to convince people that this development is indeed a home run you have to have a more bulletproof argument.

[FISHMANPET]

If a place is worth going to, people will go there.

Nobody goes to Manhattan because it's easy to park there.

[Didier]

I don't really know who you're saying that to. It's well established that just about everybody on this board agrees with that statement.

[Snelbian]

No, it was Snelbian's post that seemed to imply that Dinkytown might be better off without the Varsity mucking things up. I don't know if that's what he meant or not, but it's such an absurd idea, frankly, that it's not even worth talking about beyond this post.

My point before was just that you painted Dinkytown businesses with a broad brush, implying that more residential in the core of the neighborhood essentially negates the loss of parking, but it's obviously much more nuanced than that on several levels. Not all Dinkytown businesses rely primarily on local residents, and there is no way to 100 percent predict people's behavior when the parking situation changes, so your point is basically conjecture.

Personally I agree that I don't think it will be an issue, but if you want to convince people that this development is indeed a home run you have to have a more bulletproof argument.

I'm not saying the Varsity should be "kicked out", or that Dinkytown would be better off without it (or Loring Pasta Bar, or any other business there). What I am saying is that there is a fear coming from the likes of Save Dinkytown and some local business owners that their boutique shops and venues attracting non-locals and drivers will be forced out by increased density and decreased parking in favor of businesses that will appeal to what they portray as plebeian student tastes - chain restaurants and drug stores being the most notable examples. And I'm saying that if that happens, and if those businesses do well in place of Loring and Varsity, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Yes, it means the rest of us lose iconic businesses and wonderful concert venues that we might go to once or twice a year. But it also means that the neighborhood commercial scene is better serving the needs of its residents on a daily basis rather than relying on people who can afford a $5,000 guitar (who are rarely locals, given the whole college thing) stopping in every time Halley's Comet comes around.

[TroyGBiv]

Hate to say it but Dinkytown hasn't been "Dinkytown" since the 1970's. When I started at the U of M in the early 80's it had already lost most of it's personality. The horrible "new" buildings were the House of Hanson... So I am not too sure we are losing anything really... just like the West Bank...

[FISHMANPET]

According to a Daily article I probably already posted here, there was only 1 bar in Dinkytown until 1999 because of city liquor laws. I bet a lot of the objectors love Dinkytown as a place to go drink and party, when in reality for most of Dinkytown's life it hasn't been that kind of place.

[web]

Bar per se......beer and wine there were more!

[widin007]

I talked to a friend yesterday who thought Blarneys was getting torn down by this. The save dinkytown people sure have got their misinformation running on all cylinders!

[seanrichardryan]

Blarney's should be torn down... *shudder*

[Silophant]

Does anyone else want to commit to attending the Planning Commission meeting Monday June 24 to speak in favor of this development?

I'll go! I know it's at4:30, but where is it? City Hall?

[twincitizen]

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/meetings/p ... S1P-110078
CPED is recommending approval of all variances, conditional use permit, and site plan. I'm not too worried about the Planning Commission. Good developments usually gain their support. However, it's inevitable that the Save Dinkytown group will appeal the decision. It's the vote of the City Council's Zoning & Planning Committee that has me worried. Here are the members of that committee:
•Gary Schiff, chair
•Meg Tuthill, vice-chair
•Lisa Goodman
•Barbara Johnson
•Cam Gordon
•Kevin Reich

Additionally, this proposal is located in Diane Hofstede's Ward 3. I'm glad she's not on the Z&P.

Does anyone want to write up a form letter that people could copy/paste to their councilmembers? I know a lot of people here are in favor of this development, but don't have the emotion/fear-based incentive to write an email like the 'Save Dinkytown' folks do. They had a freaking table at the DFL City Convention last weekend. I have no idea what that costs, but most City Council candidates did not have tables set up.

I was fortunate to sit next to Councilmember Tuthill at the DFL convention. Despite the fact that I wore my Lisa Bender shirt, she approached me and we had a good conversation...which I immediately steered to this very topic. Due to the quasi-judicial role councilmembers play in the appeals process, they can't really say publicly whether they support a project or not. CM Tuthill has pretty big concerns about the affordability of the commercial spaces for small, independent businesses (being a former small business owner herself). I urged her to support the project and told her I was trying to assemble some pro-development folks to show up and bring balance to the conversation, which will be overwhelmingly against.