Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
MNdible
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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby MNdible » September 12th, 2013, 12:00 pm

Vescio's was actually one of the first places I ate on campus, and I still go back from time to time. It's certainly not cutting edge cuisine, but I've always enjoyed my meals there. It does have a certain "trapped in amber" feel about it, which is perhaps why I like it as much as I do.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby mhwbkr » September 12th, 2013, 12:19 pm

...or it means that Dinkytown has had room for businesses other than those that cater mainly to college students. With HoH gone, they are now the oldest business in the area. Obviously, something's been going right for them for most of their existence. To look for reasons for them to be worried about their future other than the sudden disappearance of the parking infrastructure (problematic as it may have been) shows a bit of confirmation bias on your part.

The owners of Kafe 421 say the same thing about the decrease in nearby parking's relationship to their downturn in business. I think you'll find that their service is excellent, food delicious, and the clientele diverse, so maybe there's a bit more validity to what Vescio said than your reviews seem to give. The Loring/Varsity folks and the Kitty Cat Klub have similar concerns, although they are more concerned for their business models. To borrow from something the Loring owner told me once, its the difference between his somewhat classy place and Senor Frogs that he'd like to maintain. Or the difference between his place and Burrito Loco, I suppose. This is why they are doing what they can to mitigate some of the damage (shared valet and the shuttle from the 4th st ramp)

There's an undercurrent to this discussion that is fairly annoying to me, that because these businesses don't quite fit into the program of increased density of the student population and services to cater to them, they don't have the right to exist in Dinkytown any more. This is what SD meant when we said that bringing more and more student housing into Dinkytown is going to homogenize the area, and make it less diverse. By making it harder for businesses with a destination component to their model to exist, you are going to lose a significant percentage of non-students on the streets and in the businesses.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby talindsay » September 12th, 2013, 12:44 pm

Kafe 421 is one of my favorite near-campus restaurants.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Wedgeguy » September 12th, 2013, 12:58 pm

When you ignore your most important customer base, then you will continue to have a rough go of it. If your business model is counting on a demographic of the over 40 crowd in an area where the average age is closer to 20-21 then you need to get your business model changed or you go out of business. Sounds like the place is bought and paid for so they don't want to invest anything into the place that would make it a bit more appealing. Have no idea what type of marketing campaign they have or if it is just word of mouth and feet by the door, which to what some say is not a very inviting appearance.. It has been something like 20 years since I was last there and that was because I had a Happenings coupon for a buy 1 get 1 free meal. Like most of you, the food was fine, but it did nothing to make me want to go back there a few times a month let alone year. I think they need that restaurant guy from the food network to go in and do a business makeover for them to get with the times. If they really want to make money, make some real changes to their business.

I don't know how you can homogenize a campus area. While there maybe an age skewered to the early 20's, there is enough, cultural, ethnic, and socio-economic differences between students that not all are out of the same mold. You also have the campus support that will be basically 25+ that have their own wants and interests. To imply that because you build student housing, no one else will come to that area is ridicules. Sporting events are within walking distance away for people to come and hangout before a game, meet, etc.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 12th, 2013, 1:18 pm

First of all I have to say I'm literally at Vescio's right now for lunch. It's a little pricier than my normal lunch choices but I thought it deserved another chance.

On another note, as someone who attended the University, a lot of my attachment to Dinkytown comes from how inexperienced it as a student. My wife and I continue to go to Loring Pasta Bar because that's where we had our first date (which is why we had our rehearsal dinner there as well). That was a connection that was made with a student, and now we're customers for life.

Vescio's never made that connection with me, and from the looks of it, I'm not alone in that. The fact that the business continues to surive means there's enough people that did make memories in the past to want to come back. But let's be honest, those people are going to be dying, and then the business will dry up. I don't have anything against this business in particular, and I don't think it needs to be bulldozed and replaced with apartments.

To your point mhwbkr, there's an undercurrent to the Save Dinkytown movement that upsets me, and it's that Dinkytown can operate exactly as it is now forever. Like it or not, there are a lot of students around Dinkytown. And if you don't get them to come to your business and build memories there, they're never going to come back when they've graduated and moved on. House of Hanson did this correctly, they continued to make connections with new students, which will last forever. I don't see Vescio's doing that, and eventually it's going to lose enough customers that it can't survive anymore. And my concern is if we fight for that Dinkytown, a Dinkytown that is too busy looking back to the past that it can't look forward to the future, that Dinkytown will become irrelevant and eventually just become a ghost town.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Silophant » September 12th, 2013, 3:03 pm

Well said.
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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Wedgeguy » September 14th, 2013, 6:29 pm

There is now an expanded area for retail that is close to both Light rail stations that has a lot of retail/restaurant space with their housing above. If they offer students more options on Washington, why hit Dinkytown as often. The area on Washington once the trains start to roll, will cannibalize sales from Dinkytown. Taking the train vs taking the bus, where do you get on and off, and what is conveniently close to your station or bus stop for businesses.

Have not walked down Washington since last spring, but I know there will be a lot of new businesses that will be taking over for empty or underutilized lots. When something new opens, customers tend to gravitate to that area until the newness wears off. Dinkytown has some major changes coming to it whether they build or not in just how students and customers who take transit will be affecting they usual patterns. The number of new apartments nearby will also affect what landlords think their building spaces are worth by walk-by traffic counts. If I have a build that 2 years ago had 400 people walking by that now has 800 people walking by, that says my building is worth more and I want someone in that building that can produce the increased rent that I want. You know that property taxes alone will be going up in this area, again whether they build or not. Just my observation of what could happen. I'd put my money on things will change big time in the U neighborhoods whether they want it or not.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 15th, 2013, 3:18 pm

I realize that the people that post in the Facebook group don't necessarily represent the views of the movement itself, but two of the posters are currently referring to students as "transitary" residents and implying that they don't care about Dinkytown as much as the permeant residents do. And I think that's a pretty dangerous thought, because that implies that because the homeowners are the same people year to year, despite being vastly outnumbered by students, who are different each year, the homeonwers have more valid opinions as to the future of Dinkytown.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Tom H. » September 15th, 2013, 3:38 pm

While I don't totally agree with that view, it's not hard to understand why it's so prevalent. It's the same kind of thinking that partially motivates the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction - namely, that homeowners are preferable to renters because of the neighborhood stability they add.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Silophant » September 15th, 2013, 3:42 pm

Heh. I'm sure Halia Maze is thrilled that she keeps receiving letters addressed to "Mr. Maze".
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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Anondson » September 15th, 2013, 4:17 pm

I realize that the people that post in the Facebook group don't necessarily represent the views of the movement itself, but two of the posters are currently referring to students as "transitary" residents and implying that they don't care about Dinkytown as much as the permeant residents do. And I think that's a pretty dangerous thought, because that implies that because the homeowners are the same people year to year, despite being vastly outnumbered by students, who are different each year, the homeonwers have more valid opinions as to the future of Dinkytown.
I think that opinion towards the students ignores that it is because the students are transitory and replaced with future students year after year that so many people in this state have affection for Dinkytown (we were those students!) and believe we all have a stake in its development as a successful "bedroom community" for the students of the university.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby RailBaronYarr » September 15th, 2013, 8:56 pm

As an aside, can we point out that neighborhood/community involvement from renters suffers from 70+ years of that demographic being told they 1) aren't wanted in a neighborhood, 2) typically being shunned to the fringe or against freeways and railroads, and 3) won't participate in the community nearly as much. Is anyone 100% certain that the direction of causality (if any) is in the direction they think it is, or more a societal confirmation bias based on the rhetoric we've held for so long?

And, as FMP points out, the average length of time people own homes now is far less than it used to be. While there are many long-standing homeowners in any neighborhood, there are plenty with the financial security to be mobile enough and sell after 3-4 years. Renting clearly lends itself to transience, but that doesn't mean they don't form a bond to their community. We should also be placing the blame on property, lawn, etc care on the landlord, not the renters. They're renting (among other reasons) to avoid this maintenance cost.

WRT Dinkytown, I think the rhetoric above is completely bunked. Many of the businesses with potential issues moving forward lease their space, yet are vocal. Many of the stakeholders speaking out are students (or former students) who have never owned in Dinkytown and may not even live there.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Snelbian » September 15th, 2013, 9:35 pm

I realize that the people that post in the Facebook group don't necessarily represent the views of the movement itself, but two of the posters are currently referring to students as "transitary" residents and implying that they don't care about Dinkytown as much as the permeant residents do. And I think that's a pretty dangerous thought, because that implies that because the homeowners are the same people year to year, despite being vastly outnumbered by students, who are different each year, the homeonwers have more valid opinions as to the future of Dinkytown.
It's just the same old conservative elitist bullshit true NIMBYs love so much. "I'm old enough and of the correct socioeconomic standing to have owned property here so my opinion on the matter should be given more weight". Good grief. But then they get to complain out the other side of their mouths that a new development supposedly precludes diverse neighborhoods and faculty renters...
Last edited by Snelbian on September 15th, 2013, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 15th, 2013, 9:37 pm

If you'll look at the group you'll know which two people I'm talking about, and I have to say they're pretty out of touch, even with the official statements made by the Save Dinkytown movement itself.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Snelbian » September 15th, 2013, 9:45 pm

I knew before looking - it's become a duet in an echo chamber lately.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Didier » September 16th, 2013, 9:27 am

There is great value in not using the Facebook group as the basis for the dissenting view in this discussion.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 17th, 2013, 9:33 am

There is great value in not using the Facebook group as the basis for the dissenting view in this discussion.
Must resist urge to engage with crazy.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 17th, 2013, 11:01 am

I couldn't do it, and now I've dragged Silophant in with me.

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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby Nick » September 17th, 2013, 12:30 pm

Everything and everyone on Facebook is terrible. Including lots of good people with good intentions. Even some smart people. If I see one more goddamn Instagrammed picture of a piece of toast with the caption "lol lovin my besties!! #YOLO #toast" I'm going to #killmyself.
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Re: Dinkytown not Megatown/Save Dinkytown

Postby FISHMANPET » September 17th, 2013, 12:37 pm

#nofilter


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