Montage (Nye's redevelopment) - 116 E Hennepin Avenue

Northeast, Near North, Camden, Old St. Anthony, University and surrounding neighborhoods
beige_box
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 12th, 2015, 1:21 am

I think this is way better. It's better for the street, more sustainable, more likely (over the long term) to function as a normal building for people outside of the wealthy elite. Whereas the original plan signified exclusivity, intended to be a permanent fortification of wealth and privilege, via its street-dominating height. All those differences will eventually play out in terms of property value, rent, and impact on the surrounding community . The scale is also a lot better, and made even more forgivable by its hodge-podge integration with the existing buildings. The connector building is the best part of all -- how often do we see new construction designed to fill in the little gaps between pre-war storefronts without demolishing something?

You could make the church-facing side a grey monolith of blank concrete and it will still be a no-brainer for the church to take it over a parking garage with dozens of stories looming overhead. Overall this new proposal strikes me as better urbanism hands-down. Sorta confused at the opposition here.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Wedgeguy » September 12th, 2015, 7:52 am

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Last edited by Wedgeguy on September 12th, 2015, 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Wedgeguy » September 12th, 2015, 7:58 am

I find it hard to disagree with you with most of what you wrote beige box. I finally got a better look at the proposal and it passes. My personal opinion is the dark grey brick is too dark with the dark brick that they used on most of Riverplace being next to it. As John likes to point out in the winter it makes the area very dark without the light colors to bounce off what little sun there is. I have to agree with you on the modern interruption of the middle fill in version between the two historic ones. Too many times they do a dreadful one dimensional caricature of a historic façade that lack everything else that a real historic façade has.

The church will now have to deal with the vibration from the building of the underground parking as that is the only place that it can go now. They can't pull a Kim Davis and say it can only be done their way. This will be the alternative and they will have to deal with it. The rest of the city neighborhoods that have transit lines need to get it through their heads that people need a place to live. They want to live in certain areas of the city in housing that takes advantage of the transit corridors. So time for the Mayberry syndrome to be put to rest. This is a quarter of a million plus city on their way to growing bigger and increasing the tax base. You want Mayberry, then move to rural North Carolina. Time to do our part to end urban sprawl and help with greening up the earth with more efficient transit options. Time to help make this a better city for everyone to live in, not just a few select.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Azel » September 12th, 2015, 8:55 am

I wonder if Nicollet Hotel Block will be scaled down the same degree?

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby mattaudio » September 12th, 2015, 10:13 am

How is this new proposal less bourgeois and more accessible? The new one will have less than half the units of the tower proposal. Thus it reasons that, over the long run and across the entire neighborhood, the decision to build less units will cause rents to be higher than they'd otherwise be.

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Nathan
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Nathan » September 12th, 2015, 10:16 am

How is this new proposal less bourgeois and more accessible? The new one will have less than half the units of the tower proposal. Thus it reasons that, over the long run and across the entire neighborhood, the decision to build less units will cause rents to be higher than they'd otherwise be.
because towers with views maintain higher asking prices for longer and are more likely to undergo renovations to stay nice as they are a greater investment.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby grant1simons2 » September 12th, 2015, 10:21 am

Why would Nicollet Hotel block do this? Is there an underground church that is concerned?

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Munch'n » September 12th, 2015, 10:49 am

The city wouldn't allow a scaled down version of the nicollet block. There's no way they would approve anything scaled down to this magnitude.
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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby Wedgeguy » September 12th, 2015, 1:08 pm

The city wouldn't allow a scaled down version of the nicollet block. There's no way they would approve anything scaled down to this magnitude.
Have to agree there. They have set a minimum of 20 stories and street scape amenities that must be included. Remember the city wants an Icon on this block. Few 6 story builds are considered icons. There is nothing around the Nicollet block that can have any sway to drop the number below what the city has already set as a base line. If anything, the city will go out of it's way to help increase the number of stories and increase the tax base, the activity on the street, and the foot traffic in and out of the building. This Nye's mess is Nimbyism that can't happen on the Nicollet block.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby trigonalmayhem » September 14th, 2015, 2:34 pm

Yeah less supply in a really desirable neighborhood will certainly lead to lower prices. Derp.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby David Greene » September 14th, 2015, 2:52 pm

I think some of you are seriously overestimating the role of supply & demand.

In a lot of things.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby EOst » September 14th, 2015, 5:51 pm

Yeah less supply in a really desirable neighborhood will certainly lead to lower prices. Derp.
Induced demand isn't just for traffic. Building new, desirable buildings can only make the neighborhood more desirable.

Is that really a problem in NIEBNA, which doesn't have much of a low-income population to begin with? Maybe not, especially given the fact that many of the student renters in Marcy-Holmes (or more properly, their parents) probably have room to pay a bit more on rent.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 14th, 2015, 9:53 pm

The type of person the original proposal was marketed to are high-income Baby Boomers living in the suburbs, many of whom would likely rent a 1-bedroom here while still owning a two-car-garage home in Maple Grove (and/or a vacation home in Florida, as from the developers' own mouths in this article: https://www.minnpost.com/politics-polic ... ate-condos). They'd do very little to offset demand within the existing community. Does anyone really believe that there are droves of students/"Millennials" out there--even the wealthier ones--stuck renting older properties in Marcy-Holmes who are actively looking to pay $300+ more to rent in a tower full of empty nesters who are as old as their parents and who demand tons of parking and 6-stories of fortress-like separation from the street-level action? Or that any of the aforementioned Boomers-with-vacation-homes are actively driving rents up in the neighborhood's myriad 3-story walkups in our actual world without another luxury tower/vertical gated community?

In truth, a massive influx of wealthy older folks eager to flex their disposable incomes would do nothing to offset demand coming from younger people with a radically different set of concerns, and probably just lead instead to an inflation of prices in the neighborhood. Plus, of course, a greater tendency to invoke the police over minor community nuisances. Not good at all.

Unfortunately, a 6-story "market-rate" building is probably not going to produce a scenario too far off from the above, either.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby FISHMANPET » September 14th, 2015, 11:24 pm

I would be seriously shocked if there was any kind of significant number of units (or really any units) being used as pied-à-terres by suburbanites.



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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby trigonalmayhem » September 15th, 2015, 6:55 am

I think your generalizations are off base. As (unfortunately) a millennial (just barely) I actually am really wishing there were more rentals to choose from in this area and am willing to pay a bit of a premium for it. This area is very condo heavy and has very few rental options currently. Most of the recent construction has been in areas I have no interest in living in and I was excited to see a proposal for so many units. It's not like this is going to gentrify the neighborhood or anything, considering NIEBNA is already quite a bit wealthier than most neighborhoods. If someone wants to risk their money on more units with the chance they might not rent them all at their asking price, who are you to tell them no? It's quite literally their job to judge market demand when planning these things but your armchair analysis is supposed to be so much better than someone putting their money on the line?

Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of parking podiums either but if you don't totally bungle the street level it's not a deal breaker if used to put more housing units in a small space.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby trigonalmayhem » September 15th, 2015, 7:02 am

Yeah less supply in a really desirable neighborhood will certainly lead to lower prices. Derp.
Induced demand isn't just for traffic. Building new, desirable buildings can only make the neighborhood more desirable.

Is that really a problem in NIEBNA, which doesn't have much of a low-income population to begin with? Maybe not, especially given the fact that many of the student renters in Marcy-Holmes (or more properly, their parents) probably have room to pay a bit more on rent.
I'd argue that with vacancy rates so low any and all supply is a good thing right now. If we start seeing rental vacancy rates tick back up to normal levels I might see the point, but for a neighborhood with easy access to downtown and a lot of amenities to have so little rental housing there is obviously plenty of room for more units. It's a way better area than the warehouse district but still occupied mostly by condo owners. I'm kind of surprised it took this long for developers to start looking around here, considering how gung ho they were in uptown and north loop.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby schmitzm03 » September 15th, 2015, 8:01 am

The type of person the original proposal was marketed to are high-income Baby Boomers living in the suburbs, many of whom would likely rent a 1-bedroom here while still owning a two-car-garage home in Maple Grove...
In truth, a massive influx of wealthy older folks eager to flex their disposable incomes would do nothing to offset demand coming from younger people with a radically different set of concerns, and probably just lead instead to an inflation of prices in the neighborhood. Plus, of course, a greater tendency to invoke the police over minor community nuisances. Not good at all.

Unfortunately, a 6-story "market-rate" building is probably not going to produce a scenario too far off from the above, either.
You've brought up a number of interesting points about this project and clearly describe how the effective market segmentation created, essentially, by price discrimination impacts supply/demand differently at different income levels (at least in the near term). I'm curious, though, what would you propose be done on this site instead of either the previous 30-story or the current 6-story proposal? I'm thinking more generally, since either may have some specific design aspect that could be improved (e.g., no parking podium, etc.).

Obviously, w're not going to increase the supply of historic 3-story walkups. Building anything new is going to require relatively higher rents unless subsidized in some way or another. Even with subsidies, of course, affordable housing is usually hardly very affordable for most low-income households (think incomes at or below 60% of area median income, and rents that still rante from $800 to $1,000 per month for a 1-bedroom apartment). While there is clearly demand for additional affordable housing, what are you suggesting happen for this site? How do you think the general dearth of affordable housing be met in general? Do you think market rate development and affordability are mutually exclusive, or is there a place for both?

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby beige_box » September 15th, 2015, 9:11 am

It's not like this is going to gentrify the neighborhood or anything, considering NIEBNA is already quite a bit wealthier than most neighborhoods.
This project doesn't just exist in the tiny sliver of a neighborhood association called NIEBNA, whose boundaries are arbitrary and irrational. All the new and proposed development in NIEBNA are having impacts on Marcy-Holmes and St. Anthonies East and West. Both are residential neighborhoods that are seeing skyrocketing rents. Doesn't matter who's "low-income" in that scenario--either way, people are getting displaced.
If someone wants to risk their money on more units with the chance they might not rent them all at their asking price, who are you to tell them no? It's quite literally their job to judge market demand when planning these things but your armchair analysis is supposed to be so much better than someone putting their money on the line?
There is huge, huge demand for affordable housing. Developers could make money off of that demand, but know that they can make even more money if they cater to the high-end demand. Moreover, they know how to advertise these things to create demand.

In any case, those oh-so-brave developers who are "putting their money on the line" are not the people you should be asking. Having millions of dollars at stake just creates conflict-of-interest when it comes to trying to figure out what equitable city growth ought to look like.
How do you think the general dearth of affordable housing be met in general? Do you think market rate development and affordability are mutually exclusive, or is there a place for both?
I think the way housing and property are treated in this country, as just another commodity in a free market, means that any new development within that paradigm--treated as a wealth-generating investment first and a place where people live second--will inevitably produce negative effects in existing communities. Short of revolutionary land reform, I'd like to see at least a couple big public housing projects in the "NIEBNA" vicinity, marketed to low-income families and refugees. Ideally a permanent, visible presence of more disadvantaged people would be just enough to stabilize rents everywhere in the neighborhood, by permanently removing any premiums that (awful) people might be willing to pay for having excluded those elements of society. Think of Cedar-Riverside, or South Whittier, or along Central Avenue in greater Northeast--all are vibrant neighborhoods that any average person might reasonably want to live. But all are anchored by big public and/or subsidized housing projects, which provides a big check against skyrocketing property values--because the people with the money are typically those who don't want to see modest non-White families on the street.

TL;DR--in our free market housing economy, much of property value derives from exclusivity. This is bad. Policymakers should seek to prevent that kind of exclusionary real estate from crystallizing within the city.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby FISHMANPET » September 15th, 2015, 9:33 am

There is huge, huge demand for affordable housing. Developers could make money off of that demand, but know that they can make even more money if they cater to the high-end demand. Moreover, they know how to advertise these things to create demand.
I too am angry that capitalists act like capitalists in our capitalist economy rather than acting like benevolent communists.

I'm not really sure that affordable housing is profitable anyway, but even if it is, that's just more argument to allow luxury projects to get built. By limiting the number of units built it means that only luxury is what's going to get built. Because developers are always going to chase the most profitable deal.

In 2013 there were about 7.5 million new passenger cars sold (this doesn't include light trucks so no SUVs or minivans but in the end the specific number doesn't matter and this one was easy to find). Automakers right now produce and sell a wide array of cars to meet a wide array of needs. My new car purchased in 2013 cost around $13k. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a car that costs over $100k. So a wide array.

Now imagine if car makers could only make and sell 750,000 cars, or one tenth of what they actually sold. Do you think they would produce the same array of cars to meet all sectors of the market? Absolutely not, they'd only sell the most expensive cars. So why would housing be any different? Why should we be shocked when developers only build luxury when we only build to meet a small subset of demand.

If your solution to housing is to just forklift a communist or socialist economy to replace our free market capitalism, then good luck. I'm not saying that'd be a bad thing in my view, but I don't think it's going to happen in any reasonable amount of time.

So let's stop trying to make capitalists not be capitalists, and instead let them be capitalists. Let's let them build so many luxury units that there's no money left in it anymore! Then they'll have no choice but to build more affordable. And what if they overbuild on luxury units? Then they go bankrupt and the housing becomes more affordable. The horror!

I didn't think the tower was a slam dunk (mostly because of the parking), but then again after seeing the rendering I'm not completely happy with this either. But I don't know, this thing in progressive housing politics were we try and limit housing supply just in case someone might not be able afford it or we don't like the people that can afford it is weird. The problem of affordable housing in most cases is not evil developers conspiring to keep prices high or whatever, but a simple lack of supply. There is more demand for housing than there is supply. So why are we surprised that housing is unaffordable? We don't hav enough of it! So let's build more housing. Build build build.

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Re: Nye's Redevelopment - 100 block of E Hennepin Avenue

Postby David Greene » September 15th, 2015, 9:40 am

The problem of affordable housing in most cases is not evil developers conspiring to keep prices high or whatever, but a simple lack of supply.
No, it isn't that simple. The world doesn't work as it does in Econ 101.


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